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Huntron Tracker 2000 HTR 1005B , testing for shorts and components

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Billy Mayo, Dec 18, 2013.

  1. Billy Mayo

    Billy Mayo Member

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    Huntron Test Signal frequencys are 60hz, 400hz, 2000hz

    What did they choose these 3 for test signal frequencys?

    Huntron Ranges
    Low Range = 10 volts peak
    Mid Range#1 = 15 volts peak
    Mid Range#2 = 20 volts peak
    High Range = 30 volts peak

    Open Circuit Signature- is a Horizontal Line
    Short Signature- is a Vertical Line
    Resistor Signature- is a Diagonal Line or a Rotated straight line

    Diode Signature- is a "L" Shape
    Defective Diode Signature- is an "L" shaped with "bending" caused by resistance

    Good Capacitor Signature- is a Smooth Ellipse
    Defective Capaitor Signature- Ellipse is Irregular shaped

    Zener Diode Signature- is an "L" shaped and the breakdown voltage has "Sharp" corners
    Defective Zener Diode Signature-
    Is an "L" shaped , but the breakdown voltage has " Rounded" corners


    Leakage Current Signature- Curvature or Rounded transistion point in the signature
    Curvature means: Non-linear resistance


    Huntron 2000 tracker , tracking down SHORTS
    1.) Defective buss line: unsolder one pin at a time from the dective buss line until the signature is normal. ( My managers favorite one which takes days to do )
    2.) Comparing Two Signatures of non bussed IC pins
    3.) Leakage & HFE is temperature dependent, when using freeze spray or heater , you can monitor the signature on the buss line that shows the leakage. You then spray or heat component one by one until you see which component's signature changes "shape"
    4.) Buss Short, VCC short, Ground Short or VCC to Ground short
    a.) Medium#2 Range
    b.) Check the Signatures for all the Non Bussed Pins



    Circuit Leakage- mean leakage from Parallel Components when doing In-circuit testing
    In Circuit Loading- means?

    What is the name when there is an internal series resistor with a diode? the internal series resistor gets developed from what?

    I know leakage is like a resistor in parallel with the diode, but what is a resistor in series ? it's not leakage it's what?

    ( Not a protection Diode, I know they have a internal series resistor but that is made like that )
    Diode has an internal series resistor
    a.) The series resistor effects the diodes to turn on at the proper voltage
    b.) Non- Linear resistance in series
    c.) What else?

    Diode Leakage resistance: Internal Resistor in parallel with diode
    a.) Non- Linear resistance in parallel
    b.) This effects the ability of the diode to provide maxium output
    c.) what else?

    How can you Test the Diode Leakage Resistance with a DVM fluke 87 meter?
     
  2. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I'd let your manager handle the shorted bus or shorted IC's. That would be more productive for you. One day, you should ask him to demonstrate his technique.

    One model of a diode is an ideal diode, a series resistor and a shunt resistor. Your little diode test doesn't measure leakage current, CAN help determine if it's leaky.

    A curve tracer or a I-V curve is a way of determining both parameters. Good approximations come from the slope around zero volts and the slope at a high forward bias like about 1V. I spent a number of years characterizing diodes.

    The basic relationship is I = Io*e(qv/Akt-1) for a diode. Things get a little messy when you add the Rshunt and Rseries terms
    Io is basically the leakage current, e is e, q is the charge on an electron, k is boltzman's constant, T is temperature in Kelvin and A is the diode quality factor which is usually around 1.
     
  3. Billy Mayo

    Billy Mayo Member

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    Why can't a DVM meter measure the leakage current or the parallel resistance?

    What is the series resistance call that is internal of the diode? it's not leakage cause that's a parallel internal resistor
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Billy Mayo

    Billy Mayo Member

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    I yet to never had my hands on a curve tracer, but the huntron track 2000 is a curve tracer right? what's the difference?

    The Signatures of a curve tracer and the Signatures from a huntron track 2000 is the same right?
     
  6. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Curve tracers can be calibrated.

    Rd (or dymanic resistance) is the resistance as a function of bias. Rseries and Rshunt are model variables.

    You really have to bias the diode a few mV around zero to get an idea of the leakage resistance. Regressing a few data points through the origin on both sides will work.
     
  7. Billy Mayo

    Billy Mayo Member

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    What can you do on a curve tracer than you can't do on the Huntron Tracker 2000?

    I thought the huntron tracker 2000 is a curve tracker
     
  8. 4pyros

    4pyros Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Curve tracers can be calibrated.
     
  9. Billy Mayo

    Billy Mayo Member

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    What does that mean? calibrated does what?
     
  10. Reloadron

    Reloadron Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Haven't heard about the old Huntron Tracker in decades.

    If you want to get an idea of what is going on using a Huntron Tracker do a Google of Oscilloscope Octopus. The early Huntron units were based on an oscilloscope octopus circuit. People were building their own octopus circuits long before Huntron commercialized the things and put them in a small chassis box. The basic circuits are easily built and expanded upon.

    Ron
     
  11. Billy Mayo

    Billy Mayo Member

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    So do you guys know about these signature

    How do you know when you got defective signatures and a bad component signature? any rules of thumbs?

    I'm more interested in knowing if a Curve Tracer can measure a SHORT and an OPEN

    Because the Huntron 2000 can measure Shorts on busses, VCC to ground on IC chips , etc . can a curve tracer do the same thing?
     
  12. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I built a simple one a couple of weeks ago, i use it with a analogue scope, I will build a much better one next year. Very handy bit of kit, i like using it for sorting zener diodes and finding suspect components. As for knowing when you have a defective component, you could answer this one yourself. You state you have had 20 technician's job's, so i think it reasonable to assume for example you know how a Zener diode works?
    To give you a clue,seeing as your google dosnt work, you connect the octopus to an Oscope, the scope is used in X Y mode. S you have one axis displaying ????????(you fill that bit in) and one displaying???????(you feel that bit in). This will draw a pretty shape on the screen depending on the values of X and Y. Once you know these values (there are little lines on the scope screen for this), you can see from the datasheet if they match ;)
     
  13. Reloadron

    Reloadron Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I suggested you Google Oscilloscope Octopus as many of your questions would be answered with pictures. Devices like an Octopus or Huntron Tracker offer up approximations. You learn to "read" the results or signatures. Reading the manual won't hurt either. Once you understand how a curve tracer, Huntron Tracker or scope octopus works then the signatures make sense and become easy to diagnose.

    Yes a curve tracer will show short and open. A good curve tracer does a hell of a lot more. Go find a good manual on a curve tracer and study it. One of the better ones I remember is the old Tektronix 575, find and read the manual on that. Then you will understand curve tracers, how they work and what they are capable of.

    Billy with a handful of parts you can build yourself an octopus for I would guess under $20 USD. That would really help you learn and understand this type of testing.

    Ron
     
  14. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Next year Ron i want to make one that will act more like a tracer, I started a few weeks ago planning it out.
    Long way to go yet, not sure how i am going to do the DAC part, but probably drive it all from a 30f with the speed turned up :D. The textronix analogue scope we have will print direct to a printer, so i hope to get graphs from it. Or i can use the lecroy and dump it all into matlab via GPIB build the graph from that.
    All theory at the moment so no idea if it will work.
    The basic one i built is really cool, but i think i need a bigger transformer (one i use now is 6 volts), a 12V one would be good, some adjustable voltage regulator's and one in constant current configuration.
    I wish i had built one ages ago! they are really good for getting the exact Zener voltage
     
  15. Reloadron

    Reloadron Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Morning LG from my side of the pond. The nice thing about building an octopus and then moving along to a fancy version is you get a good visual representation of what is going on and gain a good understanding of things. We know for example what a Zener Diode does but when we see the actual curve plotted it becomes really cool. During one of my medical leaves from work they trashed the old Tektronix 575 curve tracer I loved. I was livid over that. Anyway, good luck with building a new & improved version. Going to be a hell of a learning experience for you.

    Ron
     
  16. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Really looking forward to doing it! I had assumed that dad had given back the laptop he had got from the university (it's got loads cool software on), but he slipped up and i found out he still has it!!! :D so when he mislays ;) it, i will have Altium back and labview and matlab! i have never used labview or matlab, but i did get a very old cheap, GPID card for mums pc off ebay last year (£5).
    So I am thinking, Textronix or more likely the wayne kerr analogue scope (would prefer the wayne as it's never used, just cant remember if it has GPID). Then i have a choice, i can add a memory card to a pic and collect the data via serial on the tex, then download into matlab for graphing. Or i could go straight into the GPID on pc from the scope then matlab, if i can get that working, and if i can build a decent DAC, then i could make a great transistor tester, that gives me real data curves for each transistor!
    The octopus circuit's look simple, but there must be load's of way's to really make a good tester. Only downside is it will take a fair bit of planning before i can get the soldering iron out!
     
  17. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I forgot, yes zener's are cool, and a good way to find out there voltage. I didnt know a transistor showed a small knee on its diode trace until i saw it! I guess if you lower the current enough and have enough adjustment, then the tracer would be great for tracing shorts?
    Start with very low current? have one probe in a fixed place on the board, like say ground. Then with other probe, poke about. I am assuming that with a low enough current, when at the furthest point from the short, you would get a slightly diagonal line, this you could magnify in matlab, then as you get closer to the short, the line becomes more vertical? Oh well something to try any way :D
     
  18. Billy Mayo

    Billy Mayo Member

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    Is there a Cookbook of all the signature types , pictures of the signatures ? I know the Huntron 2000 manual has a lot of signature pictures and examples
     
  19. Reloadron

    Reloadron Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I don't know of any single cookbook out there that shows all the signatures. Just keep in mind that while signatures and images in the book(s) are similar to what you see but not always a perfect rendition. This is why I suggested reading up on a scope octopus (which the huntron trackers are based on). The idea is to understand why the signatures look the way they do. Once you understand what is happening with an X,Y mode the signatures make sense. What? Everytime you use a Huntron Tracker you will have the book out and compare pictures? That isn't how it is done. Anyway have you even tried as I suggested and done a Google of scope octopus? That will show you all kinds of images of signatures.

    Ron
     
  20. Billy Mayo

    Billy Mayo Member

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  21. Billy Mayo

    Billy Mayo Member

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    Can't I just use a AC power supply, 6.3 VAC output and a series resistor 47K or 50K ohms to make an octopus

    The AC power supply has current limiting

    You set you O-scope to X and Y , two channels
     

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