House Switch #2

[clel miller]

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OK...Now that I have my 2 "friends" behaving properly, I can ask you guys again.
In their bathroom, they have a switch, a sconce, and tube lights over the sinks.
The switch runs to the sconce right above the switch. The Hot for the tube lights connects in the box for the sconce, not at the switch.
Also with this same switch...there is another Hot that runs over to another switch that controls the closet light

I am trying to install a separate switch, so they can operate the sconce and tube lights separately...but I am not sure the best way to do it.
Can I pull out the 2/14 Romex (from switch to sconce) and replace it with a piece of 3/14 and then run the Hot for the tube lights down to a double switch that fits into the single box.....one of these https://www.amazon.com/Leviton-109-05224-WSP-Combo-2-Single-Switch/dp/B00004YUJ3/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1392157792&sr=8-5&keywords=double switch

What is the best way to get this done.?
Thank You

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

As you discovered, you have two options:
1) Power to the light
2) Power to the switch

I think what I would ultimately like is 14/3 or 12/3 to the switch. That opens up a lot of possibilites, but that is neither here or there.

What's missing and what is making things confusing is that if the power is to the light and the switches the hot wire, the white wire from the switch should be "taped black". By "taping black", I mean take a bit of electrical tape and wrap some of the white insulation with black tape, because it's acting like a black wire. I think the "taped black" is supposed to be the switched black wire, but not sure.

Your options are dependent on how easy it is to run the wires and I really can;t answer that.

 

[NorthGuy]

I don't see any extra hot wire in the sconce box, just the one coming to the sconce. Can you make a bigger picture?

The wires inside the walls are often stapled to the studs (at least they're supposed to), so it may not be easy to pull wires out.

 

[Reloadron]

Yes, the switch you picked will work just fine as two switches in a single gang box. When you are done things should look like the attached drawing.

Run any grounds as required. Hopefully you can come off the switch box with two runs of Romex AWG 14/2 W/ GND. The drawing is just an example. Since you have this apart obviously you know to make sure the branch circuit is DeEnergized (Power Off) and to observe caution.

Ron

 

[clel miller]

I don't see any extra hot wire in the sconce box, just the one coming to the sconce. Can you make a bigger picture?

The wires inside the walls are often stapled to the studs (at least they're supposed to), so it may not be easy to pull wires out.

Yeah...that has me confused as well.
I cannot shut off the power right now, but I will take some more pic(s) tomorrow when I can flip the breaker.
Yeah...it is only about 5 feet probably, but I forgot about that...you are probably right.
Oh Boy...how will I get one more Hot Wire down to the new 2x Switch.?
I hate to open the wall, because of the skip texture...but if I have to, I will and match the skip as best I can, ...I will let them decide.
Thank You

 

[Reloadron]

It looks like a hot single enters the switch and a hot exits and a wire nut sets up two switched hots exiting the wall switch box.

The Sconce looks to have a single hot coming in?

You are sure the switch has a single hot and that hot also runs out to a closet? With power off you can disconnect one of the two black wires in the wire nut. Isolate it and power up and see what does or does not work. I am just not seeing this as you are. My guess is the single wire to the switch is the hot in. Then off the switch they split the switched hot, one for the tube lamp and the other for the Sconce light. Granted that doesn't explain the closet light you mentioned.

Ron

 

[clel miller]

I think you have it backwards.
That is One Hot into the switch, and One Hot feeding the closet switch.
There is One Hot out to the sconce.

Yeah...all 3 of those Hots are tied.
One comes from the switch.
One goes to the tube lights, and the third is part of the sconce fixture.

 

[Reloadron]

OK, then from the looks of things as you said the power for the tube light runs through the box for the Sconce lamp. If you can get lucky you can pull a short piece of 14/3 between the box with the switch and the sconce box. Go to the double switch and make it like I drew it. Another option would be to add another short length of AWG 12/2 between the switch and sconce box. Either way it ends up looking like the drawing I made. The now single hot peeled off from the closet line will go to one side of both of the new switches. One switch out to the sconce and the other to the tube lamp through the sconce box. It won't be easy threading a new line through the wall but I don't see an easy way around that.

Ron

 

[Zerotolerance]

While 14/3 or 14/2 is perfectly fine to use. I try and make it a habit when doing new work to only use 12/2 or 12/3 (3-way applications).

For your application there is no need to use 14/3, stick with 14/2 (or 12/2) and run a new piece to either the sconce or tube lights to the switch.

A drill w/ hole saw, drywall saw, fish tape, fiber glass rods, super long flexible drill bits, and coat hangers are your best friend! hehe

 

[clel miller]

OK...I basically get what you guys are saying...I will know more when I open the switch again and take a look.
Is it possible there might be a knock-out in the TOP of the existing switch box.? Then I could poke another piece of 2/14 up to the sconce...and grab onto the lead for the tubes.?
I guess there would need to be a knock-out in the bottom of the sconce box as well.....
Thanks

 

[Zerotolerance]

Well if it is a plastic box then you will be ok, but if it is a metal box you typically want to use romex connectors, so the rough edges of the metal box do not eventually rub the romex bare and cause a short.

 

[NorthGuy]

Each box usually has 4 holes, and you can put several wires through the same hole, so this shouldn't be a problem. Studs between boxes, insulation inside the wall, a vapor barrier (if it's an outside wall) are much bigger problem. In some cases, it might be easier to break the drywall, do all the work, then patch and re-paint.

 

[clel miller]

I was planning on using Romex. Is it legal to just pull insulated 14AWG wire from one plastic box to another.?

Yeah...if this were smooth wall, I would not hesitate to open the rock. I can tape and paint, but matching somebody else's skip texture is pushing my taping skills.....

 

[Reloadron]

Is it legal to just pull insulated 14AWG wire from one plastic box to another.?

Yes, NM (Non Metallic Sheath) cable can be used. However, that is based on the NEC. Local state and township laws can prevail. I wouldn't worry about it. NEC Section 334.10 covers it, well 334.10 or around there anyway.

Ron

 

[clel miller]

Yes, NM (Non Metallic Sheath) cable can be used. However, that is based on the NEC. Local state and township laws can prevail. I wouldn't worry about it. NEC Section 334.10 covers it, well 334.10 or around there anyway.

Ron

Hey Ron -
Do not mean to be dense...just making sure I have this correct.
So NMC is Romex...you cannot just run insulated wire right.?

 

[clel miller]

OK...so I shut off the power again and took a peek.
The Romex going up to the sconce is definitely stapled to a stud...no way I am pulling that through.
The sconce box is round plastic. It has 2 screws at the back. They are connected to some type of bracket that hangs on a couple pieces of Romex.
So I would have to drill through both boxes, and run a piece of Romex, just to get that One Hot Wire.?
One of you guys mentioned (i think) that there is some kind of smallish fish I can use/make/buy...maybe a fiber-glass rod.?
Thanks

 

[NorthGuy]

Before you go through the walls, I would suggest you connect all the wires outside the wall and make sure that everything works as expected. Then you can hide everything into the wall. The worst thing is to spend three hours pulling a wire through then find out that this is not what you needed.

The box cannot hang on romex (at least it shouldn't), it is either attached to a stud with screws going sideways or through the back wall to a piece of 2x4 attached between studs. Either way you can remove the box which will make fishing easier. With square boxes (sometimes with round ones too) the screws or nails are usually outside of the box, so you cannot pull the box out.

 

[clel miller]

The sconce box is definitely not screwed to a stud. You can push it into the wall, and pull it out a bit.
I will not be able to power off again until tomorrow...I can tell then for sure what it is grabbing on to.

 

[Reloadron]

Hey Ron -
Do not mean to be dense...just making sure I have this correct.
So NMC is Romex...you cannot just run insulated wire right.?

Yes, Romex is NM, actually Romex is just a brand name but we all love to say Romex. An example of just single wire would be THHN and nope, you can't just run that open in walls.

Actually I like working with Romex type cable because it is rigid enough to push up or down the inside of walls. Nobody likes tearing out sections of dry wall or actual plaster to run a new power line.

Room by room as we renovate this old house I have been running all new wiring. The living room and kitchen will be done by summer and that will be it for the first floor. Been a long ongoing affair but is a hell of a lot easier with a wall or ceiling ripped out.

Ron

 

[clel miller]

OK...thanks.
I realize this is a lot of text for what would be a VERY simple job for an electrician...which I am not.
Just want to make sure I do not do anything Stupid/Dangerous...all the while being a member of a forum where..."You could have just asked somebody".
Anyway...will drill/dremmel a hole in the boxes tomorrow.
Really not sure how that sconce box is attached...guess I will find out.
Thanks All

As mentioned above...testing it, even outside the wall, is a good idea before I button this up.
I already have some 2/14...for a future sconce addition. I will not even try your guys patience with that yet.
Thanks Again