# Historic? Health Care Reform.

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#### HarveyH42

##### Banned
I guess today, is a historic moment, unfortunately it does sound like a good thing. When people look at an event as something that will be remember as historic, it's usually something of greatness, and we look forward to seeing it come to light. This one is pretty scary, to me any way. I don't deny, that something needs to be corrected in health care services, but this bill, which will most likely be passed today, is just wrong, in so many ways. I haven't had time to read through all the changes and amendments of the past week, which seem to have been plentiful, to buy votes. This alone makes me skeptical of how good this bill really is for the American people. A good idea wouldn't have as much trouble gaining support, but this one has been one compromise after another, just get enough votes to keep it moving. It should cover every state equally, and not include special arrangements for some.

The one point that has remained through out this whole mess, that bothers me most, is that buying insurance will be mandatory. Where is my freedom to choose? I'm fairly competent in treating my own minor illness and injury, but I still have to pay? I save money, to cover unforeseen problems, now it looks like I'll needing to just give that away, for something I don't want or need.

The bill makes it clear that they only hope to slow the cost increases, not reduce them, just more people paying in more money. How is this going to be good for most people?

I grew up with no health insurance, lower-middle class, family of seven, we did just fine. Insurance was a luxury item, would be nice, but not something you couldn't live without.

It so easy to spend other people's money, and our president seems to have no care about where the money comes from. I work hard for my dollar, and want to have some say on how it's spent.

#### killivolt

##### Well-Known Member
Big Government+ Big Buisness = (Corruption - Truth)

I guess today, is a historic moment, unfortunately it does sound like a good thing. When people look at an event as something that will be remember as historic, it's usually something of greatness, and we look forward to seeing it come to light. This one is pretty scary, to me any way. I don't deny, that something needs to be corrected in health care services, but this bill, which will most likely be passed today, is just wrong, in so many ways. I haven't had time to read through all the changes and amendments of the past week, which seem to have been plentiful, to buy votes. This alone makes me skeptical of how good this bill really is for the American people. A good idea wouldn't have as much trouble gaining support, but this one has been one compromise after another, just get enough votes to keep it moving. It should cover every state equally, and not include special arrangements for some.

The one point that has remained through out this whole mess, that bothers me most, is that buying insurance will be mandatory. Where is my freedom to choose? I'm fairly competent in treating my own minor illness and injury, but I still have to pay? I save money, to cover unforeseen problems, now it looks like I'll needing to just give that away, for something I don't want or need.

The bill makes it clear that they only hope to slow the cost increases, not reduce them, just more people paying in more money. How is this going to be good for most people?

I grew up with no health insurance, lower-middle class, family of seven, we did just fine. Insurance was a luxury item, would be nice, but not something you couldn't live without.

It so easy to spend other people's money, and our president seems to have no care about where the money comes from. I work hard for my dollar, and want to have some say on how it's spent.
More Gov Regulation. Inner City Hospitals are clogged up with gun shot wounds victims of Gang violence. Then come the drug addicts with complications either after or direct effects of drugs.

The people deserving care most are Children and the Elderly. But in some cases that money is used up reserves by these 2 groups. It's taxing American pockets, now we have the other side of congress who will get there way not matter what, if war didn't kill America these changes are the nail in the coffin.

They actually believe they are in control but are simply listening to what they want to hear and believe. As if it's a religion. They will fight tooth and nail staying awake nights to make damn sure it happens.

Big Business has crept in on both side of the isle we created the fatted calve, now Big Government and Big Business are eating and stuffing their pockets. Reducing Middle America's standard of living making sure what emerges are economic slaves without a voice to be butchered and packaged neatly in a pile. (It's only obvious we couldn't take care of ourselfs without them) they will protect us.

There is a lot of change in the air. An ill wind is coming neither you or I can stand against it. The lack of control over your current state is due to fear.

Fear of the unknown, most people are not emotionally prepared for that. Instead they will avoid the conversation and try to let it pass with humor or change the subject altogether.

Because the answer's required are very complicated and no one has time for that right? might just ruin there evening routine and demands commitment.

Who has that anymore?

kv

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#### tcmtech

##### Banned
Looks like I may be the one representing the other side this time.

What I know is that for years I carried health insurance and paid out the butt for it and was continually let down every time I needed it due to fine print details.
For years I paid around 1/5 of may annual income for health insurance that was not worth crap. I finally dropped it last year because I just got sick of not getting anything for what I was paying out on and I just could not financially carry it any longer.

If I had taken all the money I had paid out to insurance polices over the years when I did have it and had put it in a savings account and just paid cash when I did need medical attention I would have been financially further ahead by a long margin.

What it comes down to for me is that if the government is going to give me the same level of health care service that I had, but for free, then I can live with that. At least I can say I am getting what I pay for this time around.

Many people I know are in the lower class range con not afford their insurance any longer as well and have been dropping their coverage one by one.
They are like me and just can not justifiably pay for any more. If they want to lock us all up for not having insurance thats fine with us. At least in jail we will get free medical attention while we are there.
It might come from a knife wielding nut job with no medical skills but hey, thats basically the same service we have now anyway and at least the knife wielding nut job wont triple bill us for his work.
So there is one thing that will improve from our view!

#### ronsimpson

##### Well-Known Member
US health care is fare from being law. There are two different versions (House & Senate). Now it will take years to find a compromise bill. I may not need health care by then.

It is clear that the government will take money away from me to pay for “free” healthcare. No choice. With out much work, we barely make the house payment. Christmas this year, and last, is about getting new socks.

My brother, in Canada, pays $45 a month for health care. Then he pays 50% tax, to subsidies the health care. He laughs at the US system, then he complains that he has been trying for 2 years to get his sore nee looked at. Over the phone they can tell it is arthritis and that is not covered. #### HarveyH42 ##### Banned The thing with insurance that I never liked, is that you have to do everything as the doctor orders, or they get nasty. We have to pay something like$35, each time we see the doctor (co-pay). So, every week or two, you have to go back, so the doctor can see how you are doing, make sure you aren't in pain, or need some more pills. One good thing, the street price of pharmaceuticals should drop considerably, since I got a hunch there will be no problem getting a prescription. Canada should do some good pill business soon, should buy a few shares of stock.

I don't think it will take years to get this thing signed into law, the democrats have complete control straight through, and this one is such a great opportunity to so who has the bigger stones. Our company is self insured, so we are going to see some changes, probably taxed, which means the employees pay more, smaller raises, more lay offs. We are a distribution warehouse, the Global Warming bill (next up), will pretty much kill our business. We burn a lot of diesel fuel, I'm sure the carbon tax is going to be worse than paying for druggie pills.

Wonder why they want to cut out Medicaid. Thought that was mainly for retired people and welfare kids. The ones who need health care the most, are going to have to pay for their own insurance. Hope I die before I get old, just don't think I'd have the patience to deal with it.

What's really messed up, is the number of pages that need to be read, and the keep changing it. Nobody will have time to read it, before it get signed into law.

#### Roff

##### Well-Known Member
What it comes down to for me is that if the government is going to give me the same level of health care service that I had, but for free, then I can live with that.
Free? Where is the money to pay for it going to come from? Obama's stash (as one lady speculated)?

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#### killivolt

##### Well-Known Member
America. One of the last holdouts in the western world. Practically every other 1st world country has universal health care. Go figure!
What are the income tax rates in Canada?

Ok, If I were living in Canada. At that rate the Fed/Gov would be into 22% of my income and then depending on where I lived I would be paying between 10% to 16% on top of that to the local Gov.

I know where the Money would be coming from. At that rate I just lost my house.

Spare change anyone.......anyone?

kv

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#### tcmtech

##### Banned
Free? Where is the money to pay for it going to come from? Obama's stash (as one lady speculated)?
__________________
Well if your on the lower level income tax bracket (the one where people cant afford health care in the first place) you dont pay income tax's but rather you get everything back that was taken out of your pay check when you file. If your annual income is even lower you get extra money back on top of that.

I am happy to pay my taxes! To me that signifies that I make enough to be worth it being expected of me to help out others.
I have been at the income level where I got an additional $500 given to me on top of the full tax refund and I have been in the income level where I paid in about$1000 on top of my normal level.
I will happily pay the extra $1000 knowing that I am making enough to be in that tax bracket in the first place! Would you rather make$14,000 a year and get $500 back or make$50,000 a year and pay an extra $1000 in? I will take$41,000 net over $14,500 net any day! #### HarveyH42 ##### Banned Wish they would just simplify the whole tax system, seem like it would help more people than the health care reform. A simple, flat rate, and get rid of all the deduction, credits, and refunds. I don't have any super-rich friends, but have know a few people the were well enough off to brag about how little the had to pay in taxes. One, I saw the forms, and it wasn't that he didn't have enough withheld, it was the total tax. But, of course, the people avoiding taxes, are the ones creating them, so it will never happen. Health Care reform is going to happen, with the Democrats in control, someone will need to dig up some serious dirt to kill the bill. Both bills (House and Senate, are a patch-work mess right now), and it'll be unlikely to get cleaned up any as it continues on to Obama's desk (who probably won't bother to read it, either). Guessing now, is the time to pile on the pork, since it's already a long, confusing mess, and people are tired of re-reading through it. I'm going to wait until after it's signed, before making another attempt at reading through it. Hopefully, someone better qualified will sort out a few lawbreakers, and we can get a few of these supporters out of office, maybe prison. This whole thing is about shift money and responsibility, the medical care is going to still cost the same. Haven't seen one word, that addresses that issue, nothing to reduce or control the charges. It all seems to be business as usual, just more people paying in, regardless of need or want. #### HiTech ##### Well-Known Member Well, the ignorant "left" in this nation wanted this crap from the Dems and voted them into offices and now it looks as if we'll all pay for it. You do realize that this health care is going to be mandatory by law, just as the need to have auto insurance coverage if you own a vehicle, in many states. 1. The young folks who risk and elect not to have health coverage will be forced into it regardless. 2. Folks like me who pay for a "Cadillac" health plan will pay more for my premiums to help cover this government crap plan. 3. The quality of health care will also diminish since many preventive tests like mamograms, colonoscopies, and other screenings will not be allowed like they are at present levels. This increases the likelihood of progressive diseases, making early detection difficult and too late. 4. The healthcare industry stocks should rise significantly due to this bill, if the government is mandating those so called 40 million uninsured to receive coverage. 5. Caps on malpractice suits are not good either, allowing the quacks to slip through the cracks! 6. Obama hopes to tax those who earn over$200k yearly to help pay for he plan. The problem is there aren't enough of these folks in that income median to cover just the so-called 40 million uninsured Americans. Uncle Sam's solution for that: the Feds mandate the individual states to bear a majority of the plan's cost. Once again, Big Gov. mandating a social program paid for out of state budgets, somehow.
And once again, another classic example of Dems taxing the wealthy = redistribution of wealth... a.k.a. The Robin Hood Syndrome.
I attend college to earn a degree then start a small business, reinvesting profits into that business to further expand and create a few jobs. Now Big Gov. taxes me even more making my survivability more difficult and critical. But wait, Big Gov. can create jobs... but only for itself!!!

And that's just the tiup of the iceberg.

#### HarveyH42

##### Banned
Thing about taxing the wealthy is garbage, they like to share the pain and misery. The wealthy guys own the businesses that provide the goods and services we purchase, and they are also our employers who write our paychecks. They will do what they can to pass the added burden on down. I don't expect to see much of a raise next year, and most certainly less money leftover from deductions. The clincher will come with the CO2 taxes and regulations, which should pretty much kill my job. At least my house is paid off, and I'm debt free. Won't be homeless for a while, and can probably scrape by for a few years.

One point that I haven't heard much on, is the religion angle. I know there are a few groups that use only natural cures, don't do surgery, or transfusions. Not sure how all that works out, or if insurance covers alternative medical. But I would think this mandatory insurance would be a violation of somebody's religious. If they are exempt, somebody show me the path, I'm ready to convert.

#### kchriste

##### New Member
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I know where the Money would be coming from.
Yes, it would have to come from taxes. Still, the cost per capita in Canada for health care is apx 50% of that in the USA.
The insurance industry is a racket. Since they always have to make a bigger profit than the previous year, so the CEO can get his bonus, the private insurance companies have to continuously raise the rates, deny claims, etc.
Plus I just lost my house.
Sorry to hear that. House prices here only dropped 10% over 6 months, have now recovered, and are increasing once again. Maybe our bubble will burst next?

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#### tcmtech

##### Banned
So if its going to be mandatory to have to pay for health insurance what judge and jury is going to convict me and 40 million other people of being too poor and then send us to jail because of it?

Being required to carry vehicle insurance is different. That insurance is not to protect you, its to protect someone else who you may injure in a accident. That is the justifiable reason or it. Its also why you have basic liability as a minimum. You have no coverage for yourself with it but the other person still has coverage if your at fault.

#### Mikebits

##### Well-Known Member
Hear is a summary of the Health care reform bill.

How The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act Will Help American Families
Lower Costs for American Families

Insurance Industry Reforms that Save Families Money
o The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will put a cap on what insurance companies can require families to pay in out-of-pocket expenses, such as co-pays and deductibles, prohibit lifetime limits on benefits, and restrict the use of annual limits.
o The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will require premium rate reviews to track any arbitrary premium increases and will crack down on excessive insurance overhead by applying standards on how much insurance companies can spend on non-medical costs, such as bureaucracy and advertising. It will also provide sliding scale premium tax credits for families that still cannot afford quality health insurance.
Reduced Cost-Shifting

#### ke5frf

##### New Member
Sounds good in practice but the hard working taxpayers end up subsidizing those that choose not to work, or a single mother with 5 kids from different fathers. In the end there will be massive abuse of the system and the honest tax payers will foot the bill.
Welcome the the new US-SA comrade.

#### kchriste

##### New Member
Forum Supporter
Sounds good in practice but the hard working taxpayers end up subsidizing those that choose not to work, or a single mother with 5 kids from different fathers. In the end there will be massive abuse of the system and the honest tax payers will foot the bill.
The hard working taxpayers will end up subsidizing them anyway through increased crime (Household theft, auto insurance premiums), lost productivity due to a poor health, etc. Do you think that a kid growing up poor, malnourished, and sick because his handicapped Mom is a "lazy welfare bum", deserves what he gets? Isn't it better to nip the cycle of poverty in the bud and produce a productive citizen who can contribute to society when he grows up instead of being bitter and turning to a life of crime? While being born poor doesn't necessarily lead to failure just as being born rich doesn't guarantee success, being well off certainly improves the odds.
It always strikes me as odd that the Bible thumping, Jesus praising, rightwing republican types are the first to turn their backs on the poor and disadvantaged. This is in direct conflict with what they claim Jesus stood for. As an Atheist, it is something I've never understood.

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