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Etching system

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unbwogable

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I'm trying desperately to use the (seemingly) popular toner-transfer method of etching, and I can't get my toner to transfer. Am I doing anything wrong?

I'm using an HP color laser printer, but using a pure black and white setting, so only the black toner will print. Will a color laser using only black toner work?

Unfortunately, I usually have to wait about 45 mins to an hour between the time I print and the time I can transfer, because the printer is in my office a couple miles away.
Does the image need to be fresh?

I've tried regular paper, the inkjet-glossy stuff, and recently, the etching paper from Pulsar (pulsar.gz)
Any preferences from anyone?

I've tried sanding the oxidation off my board, using paint thinner, scotchbright pads, and each time polishing it off with acetone.
Preferences?

I picked up a heat laminator with spring-loaded rollers, and my board slides through perfectly. It heats to 300-350 degrees F.
Is this temp acceptable?

I've also tried the clothes iron, no luck.

I'm about to pull my hair out, does ANYONE have any suggestions, please?

Thanks!!!
 
unbwogable said:
I'm trying desperately to use the (seemingly) popular toner-transfer method of etching, and I can't get my toner to transfer. Am I doing anything wrong?

I'm using an HP color laser printer, but using a pure black and white setting, so only the black toner will print. Will a color laser using only black toner work?

Unfortunately, I usually have to wait about 45 mins to an hour between the time I print and the time I can transfer, because the printer is in my office a couple miles away.
Does the image need to be fresh?

I've tried regular paper, the inkjet-glossy stuff, and recently, the etching paper from Pulsar (pulsar.gz)
Any preferences from anyone?

I've tried sanding the oxidation off my board, using paint thinner, scotchbright pads, and each time polishing it off with acetone.
Preferences?

I picked up a heat laminator with spring-loaded rollers, and my board slides through perfectly. It heats to 300-350 degrees F.
Is this temp acceptable?

I've also tried the clothes iron, no luck.

I'm about to pull my hair out, does ANYONE have any suggestions, please?

Thanks!!!

Now you know why we that use Press-N-Peel don't mind paying $1.00 t0 $1.50 a sheet for the stuff. Perfect every time! I just give the board a slight scrubbing with a copper cleaner. I use an old steam iron, I got in a junk store for $1.00, set at it's highest setting, iron the PCB for about 2-3 minutes and dunk it in water. Do not use your wife's because the water remaining keeps the temperature down until its all evaporated, too much time wasted.
Sorry I am not willing to try the P-N-P in my color laser printer. I just use a cheap one I got for my B&W work.
 
Have you tried magazine paper?

I just print it off, iron it to the paper, soak it in cold water and peel it off.

What's going wrong?

Doesn't the toner sick to the board?

Does it smudge?

Are there gaps?

Perhapps you should try a different printer but I don't see how it could make any difference since all laser toner is the same.
 
unbwogable said:
So, PnP doesn't use heat to transfer the toner, then?
You print on the P-N-P instead of paper, everything else is the same, except it peels right of after you cool it off with water, no scrubbing or rubbing.
 
yes, it does. PNP uses toner transfer. if it will work for PNP, it will work for just about any paper. PNP's benefit is in the "peel" part.

when you say "no luck", is there zero transfer at all? or partial transfer?

If there is zero transfer, are you sure it's a laser jet? An ink jet will have zero transfer. If it is a laser printer, is it dye sublimation? I've never heard of anyone using a color laser printer for toner transfer. but that doesn't mean it doesn't work, I've just never heard of it. what is model name and number of the printer?

If it is a toner based printer, then it is possible that the toner has a higher fusing point. You can test this by taking a sheet printed on the printer and placing a second sheet over the printed side and ironing on highest heat setting. after it cools, if there was no transfer to the blank sheet, your printer isn't going to work for toner transfer.
 
Here are the instructions that someone called Mike sent to me:-
1) Print your image on a "laser" printer on inkjet photopaper (or copy an inkjet version on a laser copier to glossy photo paper).

Use 600DPI if you can, otherwise 300 is acceptable. Make sure your scale is right and mirrored where necessary.

2) Clean the copper well, I use wet sand paper (1000 grit), but softscrub or ajax works. Then I wipe with "denatured alcohol" and keep my fingers off the copper.

3) Set iron to the hottest setting, line up the paper and copper, and iron until you see the toner showing through the paper(ie. you see the traces faintly through the paper), iron the edges well. You can't iron it too much.

4) Fun part now, soak the copper and paper stuck to it in warm water for 5-10 minutes, then peel it off. I use fingers to rub and tooth brush to remove the glossy stuff (the glossy part of the photo paper) from the copper, make sure you do not use sharp items like your nails unless you are careful. Make sure you have all the white stuff off (the glossy stuff from the photo paper).

5) Put the etchant in a plastic tray (or glass, if you have glass tray you can warm the etchant and it will take the copper off faster). Take a plastic fork, spoon or knife and move the board in the etchant to speed it up (I slide it left and right & lift a little).

I have found that putting the board upside down works a little better (copper falls down to the bottom). Lift it up after 5 minutes and see if it is finished. Takes 5-10 minutes. If not, slide it around some more.

6) When finished, take to the sink and rinse it well. I use acetone and wipe the toner off with a paper towel. Ajax will probably work.

Buy "denatured alcohol" and "acetone" in the paint department (denatured is what I use to wipe the board before I iron the circuit on as mentioned above)

7) I hate this part. Drill all those darn holes.

It will make boards that look professional, but it takes time.

Main thing is clean copper and a hot iron.

I have done some fine work with this method. I was surprised to see how well it works.

Cleaning the paper off is the worst part. That is the hard part for me.

Also see this post:-

https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/first-try-with-press-n-peel-blue-results.16187/
 
When you say "no Luck), do you mean that no toner sticks to copper? I use an HP laserjet 1020, Pulsar paper, and a heat laminator. Only a couple of bad boards (thumb prints... need some gloves). Even if you print on the wrong side of the paper it should still transfer (just stick to copper and paper).

See if you can find some specs on your printer and toner, pretty sure HP gives those details on temperature. If you find the toner fuses at a higher temperature (above 350 degrees), you might be able to open the laminator and adjust the heat some. Would think the clothes iron would work some).
 
ljcox said:
4) Fun part now, soak the copper and paper stuck to it in warm water for 5-10 minutes, then peel it off.
Interesting, I always thought cold water is better since the toner hardens quickly, if the water's too not it might not stick to the board.
 
Hero999 said:
Have you tried magazine paper?

I just print it off, iron it to the paper, soak it in cold water and peel it off.

What's going wrong?

Doesn't the toner sick to the board?

Does it smudge?

Are there gaps?

Perhaps you should try a different printer but I don't see how it could make any difference since all laser toner is the same.

Here is the definition of magazine paper I found:
"Magazine paper,a paper suitable for printing of periodicals. It is manufactured in a wide range of grades and finishes, two or more of which are frequently used in a single issue. Both coated and uncoated grades are used, depending mainly on the requirements for illustrations and halftones."
That brings up the question, what grade and finish; coated or uncoated are you using with such good results?
So if you want to help, you will have to come up with some additional information. It might even be nice if you threw in a brand name, item # and where it can be purchased, plus the cost
 
Guessing he uses the magazine pages that aren't stuck together... :)

Actually, we've discuss this topic many times this past year. He gave the name of his favorite publications for toner transfer (think it was one of his wife's, men's magazines are too imortant to rip-up...). Don't recall the details, try searching the forum. I've got the Pulsar paper and get great results, so no interest in experimenting further.
 
Avoid excessive pressure. This will just smudge the toner around, pressure has only ONE use in the application process and that's to more efficiently transfer the heat. I'm going to hazzard a guess that printing on something like a silicon bakeing sheet might work, though typical ones are way too thick to transfer heat will. Thin PTFE (teflon) sheets would probably work exceedingly well, but good luck finding any..

As a side note I actually spent a few seconds looking it up and found some.. Go figure. 2 bucks for 6X12 sheet. The .0005 inch thick stuff, is almost exactly the same thickness as a sheet of common copy paper, it's 'rubber' and most lasers are pretty flexible for paper thickness so you could probably do the .015 safely for added durability.

I'd be very curious to see what kind of results people get from trying it. Mind you it would have to be solvent cleaned after each use.
 
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The problem isn't his paper. even if the paper was the worst in the world (like porous laser printer paper), he would get some adhesion.

and no, all laser printer toner is not the same. there are different types with different fusing points. It is possible that his printer uses higher fusing temp toner.
 
philba said:
The problem isn't his paper. even if the paper was the worst in the world (like porous laser printer paper), he would get some adhesion.

and no, all laser printer toner is not the same. there are different types with different fusing points. It is possible that his printer uses higher fusing temp toner.


bingo..... find out what type of hp color unit you have..... This is typical of color lasers... the charges are differnet strengths on the toner... that is how they manage to not get all kinds of mess..... others do a charge, toner, fuse for each color.... it just depends. Also, some use a type of plastic like in the minoltas....

try and find an hp 1012? last i checked they were running about 100 bucks 2 yrs ago... there is prolly a new one now, but look at the 10 series... also check pawnshops..... just get a B/W laser printer
 
Wow, lot's of info.
It's an HP Color LaserJet 4600 PCL 6, which, according to Google, has a fusing temp of almost 375 degrees F. That could be an issue, since my laminator only reaches a peak of 300F

I do get a tiny amount of transfer when I use the iron, but not NEARLY enough to effect actually etching the board (which I'm guessing is the result of the above discovery - should've checked that first)

Well, there is a hardware store on the corner with an older photocopier, I'm going to try that this afternoon, and we'll see.

Thanks!!!
 
unbwogable said:
...has a fusing temp of almost 375 degrees F. That could be an issue, since my laminator only reaches a peak of 300F

No, I'd say that's pretty definitely an issue :p

I bought a used HP laserjet 1100 on ebay a year or two ago, I think I paid maybe $50 for it, plus shipping. Toner cartridge of course wasn't full, but you can often find them with a reasonable amount of toner that will last you a while, and replacement "no-brand" toner cartridges on ebay are not terribly expensive either. It's a great printer, because unlike most laser printers which are a huge box, it's quite small. It's 600 dpi, and has done a FINE job with toner transfer, both with the brand-name toner cartridge it came with, and with the generic replacement one I bought when it ran out. I don't know the actual specs on fusing temp, but I run my iron in the recommended temp range for Press-N-Peel (275-325F, which is about 2/3 of max on the dial on my iron) and it transfers very well.
 
Iron temp.............

evandude said:
{snip} I don't know the actual specs on fusing temp, but I run my iron in the recommended temp range for Press-N-Peel (275-325F, which is about 2/3 of max on the dial on my iron) and it transfers very well.

Just now got around to check my max iron temp setting witch I have been using. The laboratory calibrated digital thermocouple fluctuated between 348°F - 355°F. I guess that Press-N-Peel is very forgiving temperature vice, since I have been using it well above its max recommended temp with excellent results.
 
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Has anyone here tried making a PCB using a blender pen for toner transfer?
If so, what other methods have you tried and how does the blender pen compare to those?
 
Just in case some of you aren't familiar, just to clarify, a "blender pen" is basically a colorless marker... ie - it's just the solvent part (xylene I believe) and it's supposed to be used on the back of the transfer sheet to release the toner from it.

I actually have two blender pens that I bought to experiment with in this way, and never actually got around to it. Probably dried up by now anyway.
 
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