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Deleting library components

Discussion in 'Circuit Simulation & PCB Design' started by Flyback, Mar 23, 2017.

  1. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    Is the following an advantage which only applies to the Eagle PCB layout package?
    It relates to the ease of deleting unwanted components from a library.
    I just finished a PCB project. As usual, I have a single library file which contains all the footprints, symbols and devices that I drew out and used for the PCB.
    As with all PCBs that I do, I often end up with loads of unused components in the library….eg initially created components that I just don’t end up using, or that I make a re-named version of, with a more appropriate name. So in other words, the library ends up being full of “shrapnel” that I don’t want in there. However, with the Eagle PCB layout package, it’s very very easy to open up the library file as a text file and simply delete the unused/unwanted components. This leaves you with a tidy library which can be stored away with the PCB and schem files.
    Without any training, in Eagle, its actually very easy to see how to delete any given symbol, footprint, or device.
    Cleaning up a library file in this simple manner is something which is almost impossible in other PCB layout packages. Is this true?

    If so then i will recomend Eagle to an employer partly on this basis.
     
  2. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    Unfortunately the problem with Eagle in the workplace is it's not very professional, and does not include many tools to expedite the design process. Some companies use it, but if PCB design is a normal operation then many corporations will not find Eagle to be sufficient. It's more designed for hobby-level work, even the full version.
     
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  3. Pommie

    Pommie Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    It'll be interesting to see how it evolves now that Autodesk own it. The latest version's manual and auto route are much improved.

    Mike.
     
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  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    The thing about Eagle is that i have just done the attached board in Eagle, if i was asked to do this in any of the high end pcb layout packages...i would be clueless, ..thus the following needs to be said about PCB layout....

    Sorry this speaks of the UK a lot , but i am sure the same applies and is relevant to other countries, just that i cant speak for them...

    This is an area where electronics engineering companies can massively benefit from pooling knowledge together. (specially UK ones because UK engineers do not share knowledge readily) Laying out a basic SMPS PCB in the “Eagle Pro” PCB Layout software package is very very simple indeed. Laying out the same PCB in a more “High end” package would be much more difficult. This shouldn’t be the case and needn’t be so. Unfortunately , the “high-end” PCB Layout packages are sometimes needed because Eagle doesn’t do eg multiple differential pair bus routing, and doesn’t do track-pushing etc.

    However, the Eagle PCB Layout package can do far far more than its given credit for. It’s a great shame that it isn’t more often used due to the time and money it could save. Eagle is not what would be termed a “high-end” PCB Layout software package.

    The “high-end” PCB layout packages are far harder to learn than they need to be. This impacts badly on electronics engineering companies (specially UK ones because UK engineers do not share knowledge readily)

    In relation to this, what I am now going to say will not go down well in many quarters, but must be said because the UK is now disappearing into the Third World…And many other countries are suffering the same

    The high-end PCB Layout packages are far harder than they need to be, this dramatically increases operational costs of UK engineering companies. The high-end PCB Layout packages are made difficult to use because…….

    1…The PCB Layout package vendors get payed significant money for tuition and tutorial sessions, so there is little incentive to write informative and useful training video’s etc

    2…PCB Layout engineers who have managed to master a high-end PCB Layout Package are not keen to teach others their skills, because it would mean “teaching someone else to do their job”.

    3… PCB Layout package vendors can actually benefit from users getting stuck and needing to contact them for advice…..because when the users get in touch, the PCB Layout package vendor can then check that the user has purchased a licence (and not a bootlegged one). The PCB Layout package vendor can also try and sell them a latest, updated software version.

    4…Applications engineers who work for PCB Layout package vendors often do “moonlighting” work as PCB Layout engineers, and so there is little motivation for them to produce effective tutorial materials for the PCB Layout software package. (…because it would mean producing more PCB layout staff and thus mean more competition for work in the arena of PCB layout). Such Applications engineers often eventually leave employment with the PCB Layout software company and set themselves up as a Consultant PCB Layout Engineer. Wages of £50 per hour or more are not uncommon for PCB Layout staff.

    Effective Tutorials:

    Producing effective tutorials for the high-end PCB layout packages would be a good start. As discussed, the fact that the Eagle PCB layout package is so incredibly simple shows that operating PCB layout packages does not have to be hard. Eagle is literally as simple as a PCB.



    Examples of the difficulty of “High-End” PCB Layout packages:-

    a)……PCB Layout Engineer could not lay a track at a non-standard angle:

    One day I was sitting beside a PCB Layout engineer who was working for a PCB layout consultancy. He was earning £50 per hour. He was using a ‘high-end’ PCB Layout software package. I was assisting him and advising him on laying out an SMPS circuit. He was actually ‘operating’ the PCB Layout software package. At one point, I asked him to route a particular track closer to the board’s perimeter. This meant him needing to lay this track at an angle which was other than the usual 90 degrees or 45 degree angle.

    …However, he was unable to work out how to do this. A good 20 minutes passed by with him simply not able to do what should have been a simple task. This says it all about these high-end PCB Layout packages. They are far harder than they need to be and even highly experienced users get very stuck on simple features. This is in no way an inditement on the particular PCB Layout consultant, but it is a mark of how there is a lack of decent quality tutorial material available for these High-end PCB Layout software packages. In this case the PCB Layout consultant said he would find out how to do the task later on, but when I reviewed the board later, I could see that he had still not managed to do this simple task.

    This happens all over the UK and it means that operational costs of UK electronics companies are more than they need to be. It is such a shame that a task that could easily be made much more simple is often so difficult.

    b)…..Another day I was advising a different PCB Layout Consultant on how to lay out a small LED driver PCB in a high-end PCB Layout software package. This consultant had made his living out of PCB layout, and had payed off his mortgage on his large house with his ample earnings.

    At one stage this PCB Layout consultant tried to make a footprint for a small transistor (SiS892). He was simply unable to do this simple task. The vagueries of the high-end PCB Layout software package made this simple job too hard for him. After half an hour of unsuccessfully trying to do this task, he gave up and told me he would do it later. When the gerber files were eventually sent by him to the PCB manufacturer, we got a call from the PCB manufacturer, because the manufacturer recognised that the transistor footprint had not been done properly. (it actually had solder resist all over the pad).

    Again, this demonstrates how even highly experienced PCB Layout consultants often struggle with the use of high-end PCB Layout packages. They struggle to do simple tasks in these high-end PCB layout packages. This happening all over the UK represents a lot of extra expense in the operation of the UK electronics companies.

    This is a shame because making good tutorial material for these packages could alleviate this issue. As you would guess, laying out a simple LED driver PCB is not rocket science.
     

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  6. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    I feel like we've been over this before....

    These problems are due to lack of proper training, and are not faults of the layout packages. The layout packages have these capabilities, it is YOUR job (or that of the layout engineer doing the design) to learn how to use the tool properly.

    I was able to do both of these in Altium after less than one week of exploring the software and reading the tutorials. It's not impossible, it's not even that difficult. You just need to show a little initiative, rather than spending 20 minutes and then just throwing everything down and saying "it's too hard, I want an easier package!"
     
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  7. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    In the UK, high end PCB package layout staff get higher wages than circuit design engineers.
    This says it all i believe.
    These PCB layout guys do not themselves have significant circuit design skills.
    If an individual is part of the "PCB layout establishment", then that individual would certianly not want these points that i am making to be addressed.

    I think the great President Donald Trump would support my sentiments.

    I am not criticising yourself DerStrom8, i already told you some months ago that one of your Altium tutorials on youtube is the best Altium tutorial i have ever seen...miles better than anything that Altium have produced themselves.
     
  8. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    I'm not sure I'm following your logic. In order for a PCB layout engineer to be good at his job, he/she MUST have a thorough understanding of the circuit, its operation, and theory behind it. Otherwise he/she cannot properly plan for high/low-speed design, plane placement, clearance/creepage, component placement, system engineering, and so on. If you can't understand the circuit, then you can't be an "experienced layout engineer", at least not one with useful experience.

    I have no idea what you mean by "PCB layout establishment".
     
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  9. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    Thanks but Not in UK they dont. The layout consultancies sit the other end of a skype link and get directed where to put planes, componens etc by designers......and still get payed 50 quid an hour for that. -Becuase nobody (or very few) in UK can use the high enders.
     
  10. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    My statement holds true regardless of where they are. If they can't understand the circuit, then they can not be good layout engineers. A layout engineer can be told where to put planes and connectors and whatnot but there are always little things that come into play during the layout that even the circuit designers may not see coming. In order to make the correct decisions, the layout engineer needs to have an understanding of the circuit. Otherwise they can't be good at their job, regardless of what they are paid.
     
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  11. Ian Rogers

    Ian Rogers Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    I use Proteus Ares and I have great success.. But as it is bought and paid for, when I have a small niggle or problem I ring them and they tell me.. Credit where credit is due... I need a good tool so I bought one... Back up is excellent!!

    In a nutshell If you use freebee stuff then the learning curve may be harder... Companies will help if the support is there in form of subscription...
     
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  12. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    i appreciate what youre saying, but as im sure yull appreciate, deleting and tidying libraries in eagle is so simple that i'd never need app staff help for that particular job at least.....i appreciate that there are situations where it might be needed, but its a shame these places dont put good tutorials out there so you dont need to contact them...
     
  13. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    i scoured the entire web for the best tutorial on altium as i needed to use schem and library in altium.
    The best i found, on the entire web, was a youtube on Altium video by DerStrom8. It was a great video.
    But isnt it strange that the best video on altium isnt actually authored by altium?
    DerStrom8 does not work for altium.
    The reasons for this are in post #4 above.
    These high end pcb layout packages should be making their software easier to use...but they dont, because of the reasons given in post #4 above
     
  14. Mikebits

    Mikebits Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see Derstroms tutorial, care to share the link?
     
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  15. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    its on youtube, ill find it and post it soon. I found it by searching "Altium schematic and library" on youtube
     
  16. Ian Rogers

    Ian Rogers Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    Just google "derstrom8 youtube".... He's done quite a few...
     
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  17. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    Hi guys, guess I'm a bit late to the party :p

    Mike, here you go:



    I've been meaning to do another one (using the Altium schematic editor) but I just haven't had the time. Hopefully sometime soon down the road....

    Cheers.
     
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  18. Flyback

    Flyback Well-Known Member

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    thanks DerStrom8......
    I searched literally the entire web for an altium schem and library tutorial....and the video of DerStrom8 was the absolute best i found.
    I had to use Altium to do a schem at a company where i was working in Central London.
    I downloaded DerStrom8's video, then put it on my Amazon fire, and used to watch it on the train into London in the morning.

    Just shows how these big PCB package vendors dont even do the best videos for their package......i honestly dont remember altiums own tutoral videos being of any use at all....post #4 above explains this
     
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  19. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    I'm glad my video was so helpful to you. That is very encouraging :)
     
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