capacitance meter related question

[whiz115]

Somebody told me that capacitors with leakage tend to give higher reading than their actual capacitance, is that true?

thanks!

 

[mvs sarma]

Try to connect a high value resistor across (creating leakage deliberately)and see you would have first hand knowledge.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Somebody told me that capacitors with leakage tend to give higher reading than their actual capacitance, is that true?

Depends how you measure it, if you're applying a current to the capacitor and timing how long it takes to charge, then a leaky capacitor would take longer to charge - so give an artificially high reading.

 

[Hero999]

Some multimeter measure the impedance of the capacitor at a certain frequency. The lower the impedance the larger the capaciticance. Therefore, if the capacitor is leaky, the impedance will be lower than expected which will give a correspondingly high reading.

 

[whiz115]

Some multimeter measure the impedance of the capacitor at a certain frequency. The lower the impedance the larger the capaciticance. Therefore, if the capacitor is leaky, the impedance will be lower than expected which will give a correspondingly high reading.

mvs sarma thanks man!

herro999 there are other methods other than measuring the impedance?!

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I've just bought one of these at work

https://www.peakelec.co.uk/acatalog/jz_esr60.html

Measuring capacitance isn't much use, it's ESR you need to test, and this does both.

A great little device, and PIC based as well

 

[HS3]

Measuring capacitance isn't much use, it's ESR you need to test

Come on! That's a silly thing to say! ESR can be an important spec just like admissible voltage and others but if there is one spec you need to choose to define a capacitor it is its capacitance.

That is a neat instrument there but a bit too expensive for amateurs and students. I have built myself a very simple ESR meter which is good enough for everyday testing in that it gives you a rough idea. When repairing power supplies (the electrolytics tend to go like crazy) I can run a quick check with the capacitors in-circuit and this is a great first test.

 

[blueroomelectronics]

Care to share the schematic?

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Come on! That's a silly thing to say! ESR can be an important spec just like admissible voltage and others but if there is one spec you need to choose to define a capacitor it is its capacitance.

That's quite simple, you read the value off the side of the capacitor, why would you want to measure it? - a faulty electrolytic may well read the same capacitance, but it's ESR will have increased making it useless. Measuring capacitance of an electrolytic doesn't test it in any worthwhile way.

 

[Dean Huster]

If we take that to the nth degree, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST, formerly the National Bureau of Standards) should shut down their division on capacitance standards. Somewhere in the chain, SOMEONE has to measure the capacitance, whether it's the QC department of the cap manufacturer or their design division.

One excellent excuse for testing for capacitance that I do is sorting caps for the range capacitors on a function, pulse or signal generator. They are sorted according to the significant digits of the value for each decade. You install caps that have the same significant digits regardless of their actual value. That way, the single frequency-calibration adjustment will be good for all ranges and not just the one range that's used for the adjustment. If you're using an analog dial (or better yet, restoring an older generator), the overall accuracy of the instrument is improved by a full magnitude that way. Yes, you can use a counter to measure the output frequency in actual use, but for many applications (alignment of an antique radio comes to mind), you don't need counter accuracy but would be content with better than off-the-design-shelf accuracy for an older instrument.

Dean

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

If we take that to the nth degree, the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST, formerly the National Bureau of Standards) should shut down their division on capacitance standards. Somewhere in the chain, SOMEONE has to measure the capacitance, whether it's the QC department of the cap manufacturer or their design division.

Manufacturing is obviously a completely different application

One excellent excuse for testing for capacitance that I do is sorting caps for the range capacitors on a function, pulse or signal generator. They are sorted according to the significant digits of the value for each decade. You install caps that have the same significant digits regardless of their actual value. That way, the single frequency-calibration adjustment will be good for all ranges and not just the one range that's used for the adjustment. If you're using an analog dial (or better yet, restoring an older generator), the overall accuracy of the instrument is improved by a full magnitude that way. Yes, you can use a counter to measure the output frequency in actual use, but for many applications (alignment of an antique radio comes to mind), you don't need counter accuracy but would be content with better than off-the-design-shelf accuracy for an older instrument.

The exception that proves the rule perhaps?

But notice that in either of those two cases, measuring the capacitance doesn't tell if the capacitor is any good or not - although during manufacture they test ESR as well anyway (which is where the ESR spec for the capacitor comes from).

 

[HS3]

That's quite simple, you read the value off the side of the capacitor, why would you want to measure it? - a faulty electrolytic may well read the same capacitance, but it's ESR will have increased making it useless. Measuring capacitance of an electrolytic doesn't test it in any worthwhile way.

This is symplifying things a tad too much for my taste. Why would I want to measure the capacitance of a capacitor? Well, for the same reasons I might measure the actual value of a resistor or an inductance or the performance of an active component or the length of a piece of lumber even though all that information is given by the manufacturer. Maybe because the value given has a wide tolerance and is only nominal and I want to have more precission. Maybe because I want to confirm that the component actually meets the specs and is not bad. It can be mislabeled or the label may not be readable. If I have a box of recycled electrolytics I am more interested in knowing their capacitance than their ESR. A capacitor known to have 10 uF and of unknown ESR can still be used in applications which do not require low ESR. A capacitor of unknown capacitance is useless.

ESR has become more of an issue in recent years for two main reasons. One is that old electrolytics were huge by today's standards and had lower ESR. Miniaturization has brought higher ESR and new technologies to lower it are needed. Another is that old power supplies worked at very low frequency and with very low ripple current per capacitance unit. SMPS have brought a huge increase in current per microfarad and this requires lowering the ESR to a minimum. Cheap capacitors with higher ESR may not be suitable for certain applications like high frequency SMPS but they can be perfectly good for other uses and I need to know the capacitance.

I would still say that in the beginner's toolbox it makes more sense to have a capacitance meter than an ESR meter and capcitance meters are cheaper and more plentiful anyway. Note also that capacitance value depends on several factors like bias voltage so it is not like it is a fixed, immutable value. A capacitor which is nominally 1 uF at 200 V will have a very different capacity at 10 V.

Also, for the purpose of repair and general maintenance, the technician does not really need to measure ESR with much precission because just an order of magnitude is enough. As I say, I have a very basic instrument and I have learnt to tell good from bad capacitors pretty quick even though I have no idea of numerical value of ESR. Basically 95% of caps fall into two main categories (a) Needle hardly moves (high ESR) so cap is bad or (2) needle goes to end of scale (low ESR) so cap is good. It is rare that I get a middle of scale reading and then I need to take a closer look. If cap is of very low capacitance then it might be passable, otherwise I discard it. Also, it depends on use. If it will go in a high frequency SMPS then I want to see the needle go to the end of the scale but if it will go in some low-current application then it may be perfectly good. The thing about ESR is that once a cap begins to go bad the use will make it quickly spiral and ESR shoots through the roof.

I have repaired many SMPS which were bad due to bad caps. Generally I will replace them all because if a bad brand was used then I want to replace them before they fail again.

For normal repair work you do not need a precission ESR meter. A basic instrument which gives a general idea is enough.

Care to share the schematic?

You can find it **broken link removed**.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

A capacitor which is nominally 1 uF at 200 V will have a very different capacity at 10 V.

I've never heard of that, and never found it so - certainly a 1uF 200V capacitor will read 1uF (within tolerance) at the low voltages used for measuring.

What does change massively is ESR (sorry to mention it again), high voltage capacitors generally have really rubbish ESR values.

For normal repair work you do not need a precission ESR meter. A basic instrument which gives a general idea is enough.

I agree, I've been using a simple home made one for years, and only just bought a cheap professional one the other week.

 

[HS3]

Some people think that replacing a capacitor with another one of the same capacitance but rated for higher voltage and higher temperature is always a good thing and that it will last longer. But higher rated voltage and higher rated temperature nearly always mean higher ESR which leads to higher temperature and shorter life. What is generally true is that it is good if you replace a capacitor with another one of higher capacitance because this means lower ESR. Within limits and space constraints I generally replace SMPS caps with somewhat larger values. And if space permits I will install two caps in parallel rather than just one. This also lowers ESR.

I have read (but not precisely confirmed personally) that caps rated for higher voltages will not keep their capacitance value if continuously biased at much lower voltages because the higher voltage determines the thickness of the oxide dielectric. The idea is that the dielectric degrades over time and needs the voltage to keep in in condition.

www.kendeil.com/pdf/Building_an_electrolytic_capacitors.pdf
The dielectric of the aluminium electrolytic capacitor is composed of a thin layer of aluminium oxide (Al2O3) which "forms" on the surface of the etched aluminium foil during a process called "formation." Since capacitance is inversely proportional to the dielectric thickness and this is proportional to the forming voltage, thefollowing relation is appliable:
Capacitance x Forming Voltage = Constant

The formation voltage used is typically 3-4 times higher than the rated voltage. The idea is that the dielectric degrades over time and needs the voltage to keep it "formed". This is to say that it is better for a capacitor to remain biased than to sit unused. I have also observed that a capacitor which has been unused for a long time has higher leakage current which gradually diminishes as the capacitor is "re-formed" by the voltage applied.

 

[whiz115]

HS3 from what i understand nigel speaks about diagnosis of a faulty cap.

Measuring capacitance isn't much use, it's ESR you need to test

what you're explaining are very interesting but for a fast diagnosis of a faulty component i think an esr meter is the way to go, if the capacitance is not always going down but ESR goes, then what's the point playing with a capacitance meter while you only want to know degradation of the components?!

if you tell me that capacitance goes always down while the caps are aging or get misused, then i think i'll forget about ESR meter, because i'm not interested for anything else other than testing if an on circuit capacitor is fine.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

if you tell me that capacitance goes always down while the caps are aging or get misused, then i think i'll forget about ESR meter, because i'm not interested for anything else other than testing if an on circuit capacitor is fine.

Capacitance doesn't always go down when it fails, that's the whole point - you also can't usually measure capacitance in-circuit, where as you can ESR.

Having said that, my new meter does both (or at least trys to), but while it always reads ESR in-circuit, sometimes it just displays the capacitance as 'in circuit' rather than a value.

 

[HS3]

HS3 from what i understand nigel speaks about diagnosis of a faulty cap.

From what I understand each one of us is talking about something different. The OP asked about capacitor characteristics in general, no specifically about trying to diagnose possible faulty caps in-circuit.

It seems some are trying to argue against a straw man here because at the beginning of the thread I said

I have built myself a very simple ESR meter which is good enough for everyday testing in that it gives you a rough idea. When repairing power supplies (the electrolytics tend to go like crazy) I can run a quick check with the capacitors in-circuit and this is a great first test.

Let us stop moving the goal posts around because we're all saying essentially the same thing.

 

[HS3]

Capacitance doesn't always go down when it fails, that's the whole point

I would qualify that by saying that a very common way, the most common way, for caps to fail is because due to heat or too much ripple current or cheap cap or whatever the ESR goes up a bit, which causes the cap to heat up more which in turn causes electrolite evaporation which causes higher ESR and the cap enters a spiral of growing ESR and growing temperature which ultimately leads to its destruction. It would be rare that you catch a capacitor in the middle of this process. By the time you get the electronic circuit the cap has usually failed catastrophically or has not started the degradation process. Once I get a power supply with a bad cap I look at the rest and if they are of the same cheap brand I replace them all even if they test good. There is no point in saving a few pennies only to have another cap fail later on.

- you also can't usually measure capacitance in-circuit, where as you can ESR.

Yes that is the main advantage of testing ESR: that it can be done in-circuit. Unsoldering components is a PITA.

Having said that, my new meter does both (or at least trys to), but while it always reads ESR in-circuit, sometimes it just displays the capacitance as 'in circuit' rather than a value.

"Always" leaves no alternative possibility. I would say "Almost always" because I think that any ESR meter would have a problem measuring ESR of a capacitor which has a very low resistor in parallel. This is, admitedly, a very rare situation in real circuits but it does happen.

So, yes, we agree, the *first* test I do on any faulty SMPS is test all caps with the ESR meter and most of the time it detects bad caps . Maybe replacing the caps is all it takes but very often the failure of the caps has lead to the destruction of the switching elements and other disasters.