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ATF "Guns 4 the Cartel" ??

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Tinker Unique

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Just read an article in the "Gun Week" magazine, Oct 1 issue about there hand grenade supplies and 2,000 guns were trafficked to Mexican cartels by ATF agents. Aren't these people the ones who are supposedly responsible for protecting citizens ?? Makes a person wonder what/who to belive when they say they want to regulate/restrict the guns in American citizens posession. ALSO heard of a new proposed bill to regulate the magazine capacity of handguns. I thought that law was already in place. ( Another law that can/will not be enforced.) ??? The every day person is not supposed to protect themselves when a thug breaks in ?? Sounds like more of the "Clinton era" when 'Uncle Billy' was heavily supported by Hangun Control, Inc. = The "Brady Bill" has little effect on crooks that will get guns or whatever they want. I think the EXISTING LAWS should be enforced, instead of passing more laws that will not be effective except to restrict the law-abiding majority. I'm asking all to question our elected few to answer these questions - Anybody interested ?
 
One source makes it a fact? One opinion is the ideal? One law should be perfect? The elected few aren't necessarily there to answer these questions, it's the population(s) that have worked around the intent of the law that you might want to question, and these are never with good intent, law abiding citizens that want to own and carry a gun in the US can and do quietly based on the law.
 
I'm truly sorry to sound as I belive only one source. I was simply listing that source as a starting point if a person was interested. There are about 1/2 dozen articles on this subject / written by different people, in different states. Most stated the same thing but in a different way. Also related was when ATF agents released an individual, "so they could arrest him later". BUT he crossed into Mexico first. ?? I usually cross-reference information from at least 3 sources before making a decision. I'm also "informed" by people that think handguns are only used to kill people, and hunters only kill for a trophy on the wall. I also know people ( men & women) that shoot like others play golf or go bowling. There was life before cellphones - how many of our forefathers ate venison and rabbit. Does anybody consider that ??
 
ALSO heard of a new proposed bill to regulate the magazine capacity of handguns. I thought that law was already in place.

No, that law expired. The new one was a response to the shooting of Congresswoman Giffords. The shooter used an extended magazine. They jumped him when he went to change clips. Might have saved a few lives if he had 15 shots instead of 30.
Don't overrate being able to carry. In Arizona everyone can. In the Giffords deal a guy was around with a gun. Almost shot the guy that picked up the shooters gun.
 
I'm truly sorry to sound as I belive only one source. I was simply listing that source as a starting point if a person was interested. There are about 1/2 dozen articles on this subject / written by different people, in different states. Most stated the same thing but in a different way. Also related was when ATF agents released an individual, "so they could arrest him later". BUT he crossed into Mexico first. ?? I usually cross-reference information from at least 3 sources before making a decision. I'm also "informed" by people that think handguns are only used to kill people, and hunters only kill for a trophy on the wall. I also know people ( men & women) that shoot like others play golf or go bowling. There was life before cellphones - how many of our forefathers ate venison and rabbit. Does anybody consider that ??

The thing that's rarely mentioned about the "Fast and Furious" operation that you are referring to, was that it wasn't something that was started under the Obama administration - it actually was begun during the previous administration. Funny thing is, people (republicans mainly) want to make it out that it was a big foul-up under the current administration. Now, I'm not going to argue that it isn't a mess, and that the administration doesn't deserve the flack.

I do wonder about the fact that since this same thing went on during the Bush Jr. administration, how many of the weapons traded during that time were lost, but we didn't hear about it; either because the media was distracted or complicit in some way, or because it was swept under the rug really quickly? I also wonder if any of the weapons found/seized so far actually date from the earlier days of the operation? We'll probably never know; the spin by the the conservatives is one of "it's Obama's fault" (at worst); or at least the current administration's fault.

I also wonder if anyone in the current administration tried to shut it down as the bad idea it was, and was overruled by a republican for that idea being bad for national security or "soft on drugs" or some other dumb reason. Once again, though - we'll never know. Or, if it has been mentioned, it will be buried in the noise of our crappy political bickering.
 
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crOsh - True... It's like the "DEFECIT" being Obamas fault... ??? Our elected officials have been raising the "spending limit" for how many decades. Only now they blame it "ON HIM". They are the only ones that I know of to vote to increase their own salaries. Why has Social Security NOT been raised for "cost of living" ? Many retired people are at poverty level AND on food stamps. AND how many soldiers families are on food stamps ??? THAT has been going on for quite some time...... I should have been a career politition / give myself raises / give money to big corporations and blame "the other guy".
 
This thread is as waste of time to all whom partake or post on it in any manner other than to get a rise out of people, there are no facts or disinterested viewpoints, nothing to share beneficially for neutral increased knowledge, just accusations.

The video currently linked in nsaspook's post is inflammatory, useless for information and political and language based rather than an true interst in discovery of circumstance.
 
This thread is as waste of time to all whom partake or post on it in any manner other than to get a rise out of people, there are no facts or disinterested viewpoints, nothing to share beneficially for neutral increased knowledge, just accusations.

The video currently linked in nsaspook's post is inflammatory, useless for information and political and language based rather than an true interst in discovery of circumstance.

The video I linked to was official testimony of a US official(Mr. William Newell, Former ATF Special Agent in Charge of the Phoenix Field Division) to Congress on the issue. There are facts in this case and they look very bad and stupid. The BATF field agents blew the whistle on this because they knew it was wrong headed. It's has nothing to do with politics or gun control at it's heart just common sense that some in power seemed to not have.
 
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nsaspook, please look at the video and realize that this isn't about question and answer, it's about a skilled manipulator grilling someone that is trying to answer seemingly simple questions with massive overtones to determine guilt. There is nothing clear cut in this situation. There are assumptions and theory and ideas but little to no raw data, or directly attributed action. Just innuendo and hearsay.

It's bad funding, junk politics, and stupid people all thrown in the same pot, no good can come from it. I'm sure the original theory for the perceived problem that originated this entire scam (which is what it is) was well intentioned, they're a step closer to the hell of good intentions though.

If it were a requirement to be above average intelligence or have 'perfect' plans to be a politically involved person, there is only a tiny fraction of people on this earth that would qualify. This has NOTHING to do with what democracy is about though.... It's about the people, what the average thinks, what is best for us as a mass. Not the best or the dumbest. Yet that's who leads us.


It will work itself out like most problems do, when the solution is arrived at.
 
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Sorry, but there is a right and wrong here. People have been killed because of this misguided strategy. Just tell the truth about what happened.
**broken link removed**
Sources tell CBS News that, in January 2010, ATF had Kingery under surveillance after he bought about 50 grenade bodies and headed to Mexico. But they say prosecutors wouldn't agree to make a case. So, as ATF agents looked on, Kingery and the grenade parts crossed the border -- and simply disappeared.

Six months later, Kingery allegedly got caught leaving the U.S. for Mexico with 114 disassembled grenades in a tire. One ATF agent told investigators he literally begged prosecutors to keep Kingery in custody this time, fearing he was supplying narco-terrorists, but was again ordered to let Kingery go.
https://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-atf-guns-20111009,0,6431788.story?track=rss
In all, 100 assault weapons acquired under Fast and Furious were transported 350 miles from Phoenix to El Paso, making that West Texas city a central hub for gun traffickers. Forty of the weapons made it across the border and into the arsenal of Jose Antonio Torres Marrufo, a feared cartel leader in Ciudad Juarez, according to federal court records and trace documents from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/20...apons-during-fast-and-furious-documents-show/
In June 2010, however, the ATF dramatically upped the ante, making the U.S. government the actual "seller" of guns.
According to documents obtained by Fox News, Agent John Dodson was ordered to buy six semi-automatic Draco pistols -- two of those were purchased at the Lone Wolf gun store in Peoria, Ariz. An unusual sale, Dodson was sent to the store with a letter of approval from David Voth, an ATF group supervisor.
...

Subsequent to this undercover operation, sources told Sipsey, "Dodson just about came apart all over them (his supervisors). In a 'screaming match' that was heard throughout the Phoenix office by many employees, Dodson yelled at Voth and Assistant Special Agent in Charge George Gillett, 'Why not just go direct and empty out the (ATF) arms room?" (to the cartels), or words to that effect.'
After the confrontation, ATF managers transferred Dodson to a more menial job. Months later, after the death of Border Patrol agent Brian Terry, Dodson blew the whistle and went public about the federal government's gunrunning operation.

**broken link removed**
 
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