And we are not your slaves...

[3v0]

From time to time we get people who want their code fixed but are not willing to learn from their mistakes or the person helping.

I realize this is a much harder task when data sheets are not provided in your native language. Not our fault. If you want to work in electronics you need to improve you English comprehension skill to where you can read and understand.

Everyone needs to start at the beginning learning the simple things first. We often start with blinking LEDs but getting the LEDs to blink is a second level benefit. The important lessons are learning syntax, flow control, and debugging methods.

When you ask for syntax help in a program using peripherals involving communication protocols everyone know you messed up and did not learn the basics.

People grow tired of fixing problems you would not be having if you paid attention and learned the basics.

We are not bad, mean or ugly. And we are not your slaves.

 

[Ian Rogers]

I totally Agree....

I provide my time for free... As many others do on this forum.... Nothing makes me happier knowing that the lesson is learnt... However when we get "pppllleeeaaasssee can you help...Its urgent", we know too well that this is a dead horse.... Can't be arsed to read up or even try...

Sometimes we do get annoyed ( and it probably comes across ).... We had to do it, so we expect others to do it as well..

 

[RichTheDude]

From time to time we get people who want their code fixed but are not willing to learn from their mistakes or the person helping.

I realize this is a much harder task when data sheets are not provided in your native language. Not our fault. If you want to work in electronics you need to improve you English comprehension skill to where you can read and understand.

Everyone needs to start at the beginning learning the simple things first. We often start with blinking LEDs but getting the LEDs to blink is a second level benefit. The important lessons are learning syntax, flow control, and debugging methods.

When you ask for syntax help in a program using peripherals involving communication protocols everyone know you messed up and did not learn the basics.

People grow tired of fixing problems you would not be having if you paid attention and learned the basics.

We are not bad, mean or ugly. And we are not your slaves.

Totally agree, a lot of people are trying to build houses without foundations and will do anything to avoid building the foundations.

I love helping people (or at least having a go at doing so!) but when someone is asking syntax questions in such projects, I hold little hope!

 

[fvm]

totally agree

 

[ericgibbs]

hi,
I think it would be more helpful to target these comments at the members who are constantly asking these type of questions for work that they should have already covered rather than make a general statement.

I have noticed on the chat line members asking technical questions about subjects, who I realise dont have the basic knowledge to understand the answers they are given and so keep repeating the same questions.

E.

 

[JonSea]

These kind of people are called Help Vampires. When they have a problem, their first recourse is to dash off a forum posting rather than taking even a few moments to think about it, research it or even try the simplest experiment or troubleshooting effort. When someone does attempt to explain what's going on, these people can't be bothered to take the time to understand or even read the entire reply. Everyone willing to take the time to reply spends more time and effort answering than the original poster spent trying to solve the problem.

The big problem with this is it wastes the limited resource of knowledgeable people willing to give their time and effort to help others. In extreme cases, a help vampire or two can suck the life out of a forum.

It gives me endless pleasure to answer a question when the original poster replies, demonstrates some understanding of the answer and perhaps asks additional questions having built on the first answers. When somebody asks the same or similar question again a month or two later in a slightly different context demonstrating that nothing was learned the first time, the vein in my neck starts to bulge!

 

[Wp100]

If you want to work in electronics you need to improve you English comprehension skill to where you can read and understand.

Perhaps above members would like to state how many languages they are fluent in ?

I for one only speak English but do not denigrate those whose native tongue is not.


As regular members of the forum its usually obvious to see which posts are from the young guys doing / cribbing their college assignments and clearly should be only given the most general of guidance, if any.

 

[Norator]

These kind of people are called Help Vampires. When they have a problem, their first recourse is to dash off a forum posting rather than taking even a few moments to think about it, research it or even try the simplest experiment or troubleshooting effort. When someone does attempt to explain what's going on, these people can't be bothered to take the time to understand or even read the entire reply. Everyone willing to take the time to reply spends more time and effort answering than the original poster spent trying to solve the problem.

The big problem with this is it wastes the limited resource of knowledgeable people willing to give their time and effort to help others. In extreme cases, a help vampire or two can suck the life out of a forum.

It gives me endless pleasure to answer a question when the original poster replies, demonstrates some understanding of the answer and perhaps asks additional questions having built on the first answers. When somebody asks the same or similar question again a month or two later in a slightly different context demonstrating that nothing was learned the first time, the vein in my neck starts to bulge!

I've seen this \/ on other forums

"Why Don't You/Yes But
The first such game theorized was Why don't you/Yes, but in which one player (White) would pose a problem as if seeking help, and the other player(s) (Black) would offer solutions (the "Why don't you?" suggestion). This game was noticed as many patients played it in therapy and psychiatry sessions, and inspired Berne to identify other interpersonal "games".

White would point out a flaw in every Black player's solution (the "Yes, but" response), until they all gave up in frustration. For example, if someone's life script was "to be hurt many times, and suffer and make others feel bad when I die" a game of "Why Don't You, Yes But" might proceed as follows:

White: I wish I could lose some weight.
Black: Why don't you join a gym?
White: Yes but, I can't afford the payments for a gym.
Black: Why don't you speed walk around your block after you get home from work?
White: Yes but, I don't dare walk alone in my neighborhood after dark.
Black: Why don't you take the stairs at work instead of the elevator?

The secondary gain for White was that he could claim to have justified his problem as insoluble and thus avoid the hard work of internal change; and for Black, to either feel the frustrated martyr ("I was only trying to help") or a superior being, disrespected ("the patient was uncooperative").

Superficially, this game can resemble Adult to Adult interaction (people seeking information or advice), but more often, according to Berne, the game is played by White's helpless Child, and Black's lecturing Parent ego states.
"

I've also seen someone explain something quite clearly and the OP just keeps saying "What's your point?" or something similar. The replier goes to even more trouble to re-explain, to no avail. In this case I'd say the OP is 'playing' the replier but it may be that the OP is just thick.

 

[RichTheDude]

Perhaps above members would like to state how many languages they are fluent in ?

I for one only speak English but do not denigrate those whose native tongue is not.


As regular members of the forum its usually obvious to see which posts are from the young guys doing / cribbing their college assignments and clearly should be only given the most general of guidance, if any.

I only speak English fluently, although I do have a crude grasp of Mandarin.

I fail to see how 3V0 is denigrating non English speakers in any fashion. It is an unfortunate fact of life that significant amounts of information (data sheets, application notes etc) are provided in English only. The situation is getting better, however the typically provided languages (English, Chinese and Japanese) are still a minute subset of the worlds languages. This leaves many students in emerging economies at a disadvantage, to which at the moment the only solution for them is to get a better grasp of English.

Unfortunate? Yes. Denigrating to non English Speakers? No.

 

[tcmtech]

White would point out a flaw in every Black player's solution (the "Yes, but" response), until they all gave up in frustration. For example, if someone's life script was "to be hurt many times, and suffer and make others feel bad when I die" a game of "Why Don't You, Yes But" might proceed as follows:

White: I wish I could lose some weight.
Black: Why don't you join a gym?
White: Yes but, I can't afford the payments for a gym.
Black: Why don't you speed walk around your block after you get home from work?
White: Yes but, I don't dare walk alone in my neighborhood after dark.
Black: Why don't you take the stairs at work instead of the elevator?

The secondary gain for White was that he could claim to have justified his problem as insoluble and thus avoid the hard work of internal change; and for Black, to either feel the frustrated martyr ("I was only trying to help") or a superior being, disrespected ("the patient was uncooperative").

GOOD LORD! Are you spying on my wife and me? We go through this same argument cycle several times a day.
Her playing White me playing Black.

Her getting more exercise, which vehicle she will drive to work today, her going outside, what order of construction the new house project has to go in, paying the bills, going to bed on time.,who's cooking food tonight/this weekend, mowing the yard, running the backhoe tractor, what are we going to watch on TV, what movie to watch, and countless others.

If you play the game long enough you just wear yourself out and eventually come to the conclusion the White player simply won't but feels they need a justified reason (any reason no matter how petty or small will do) for giving up and or never trying.

 

[3v0]

Perhaps above members would like to state how many languages they are fluent in ?

I for one only speak English but do not denigrate those whose native tongue is not.

As regular members of the forum its usually obvious to see which posts are from the young guys doing / cribbing their college assignments and clearly should be only given the most general of guidance, if any.

Over the years I have been fluent in many computer languages. These days I only speak C. Not much call for the rest of it. And for the same reason I only speak English!

You missed my point. If you want to do engineering and they don't print datasheets in your language then you are going to have to learn how to read and understand datasheets. I don't care if you choose English, Japanese or Chinese. A person not willing to do so should not be doing engineering.

It is nearly impossible to be fluent in any language other then English in the US. Border to border we all speak english with the exception of a few spanish speakers, Most of Canada is English speaking too with the exception of the French Canadians. I have never meet a French Canadian that did not speak English.

We teach other languages in our schools but it is mostly a waste of time because without a population speaking that language it is soon forgotten.

I think it would be more helpful to target these comments at the members who are constantly asking these type of questions for work that they should have already covered rather than make a general statement.

That was my intent. Short of naming names I do not know how I could have been clearer.

 

[JonSea]

On this topic, I have a couple more peeves:

1. The original poster posts again, giving no hint that he's read any of the replies or taking any action but instead asks the same or more questions. Let us know you made some progress and have solved whatever the initial problem was.

2. If the suggested fixes work, close the loop and post that the problem is solved, perhaps with an acknowledgement of the help you received. If you don't provide that feedback, someone else reading the topic doesn't know if the suggestions worked, you gave up trying or if something else did the trick. Consider this a cost of asking for help. I hate it when I never hear back if the problems got resolved.

 

[tcmtech]

1. The original poster posts again, giving no hint that he's read any of the replies or taking any action but instead asks the same or more questions. Let us know you made some progress and have solved whatever the initial problem was.

I have come to see that as standard forum behavior and etiquette or lack thereof.

If the reply is more than one or two short sentences long it largely gets ignored or passed over. It's simply too much reading for some to handle at once.

I would say more but I have already used a quote plus passed the two sentence mark so this post in general might as well have never been typed.

 

[DerStrom8]

On this topic, I have a couple more peeves:

1. The original poster posts again, giving no hint that he's read any of the replies or taking any action but instead asks the same or more questions. Let us know you made some progress and have solved whatever the initial problem was.

2. If the suggested fixes work, close the loop and post that the problem is solved, perhaps with an acknowledgement of the help you received. If you don't provide that feedback, someone else reading the topic doesn't know if the suggestions worked, you gave up trying or if something else did the trick. Consider this a cost of asking for help. I hate it when I never hear back if the problems got resolved.

I don't know who you think you are, but 3v0's post made perfect sense to me. It's not his fault you guys can't read the post the way it's intended. And you guys obviously haven't tried to help someone who can't think for themselves, or demand answers instead of trying to learn how to do the problem. If you had, you'd understand exactly where 3v0 is coming from.

Also, I hope he doesn't mind me bringing this up, but 3v0 used to be a moderator here. He is trustworthy and patient. He wouldn't post a thread like this unless he felt it was a serious issue. Which it is.

You accuse him of not reading the replies, but I think you just aren't reading his posts fully. How about you try helping someone who refuses to do the work. You'll quickly learn what he means.

Matt

 

[atferrari]

Matt

Hola Matt, mee too I thought the same as you. Later I realized he posted something that should be told to those asking for help.

 

[DerStrom8]

Hola Matt, mee too I thought the same as you. Later I realized he posted something that should be told to those asking for help.

Exactly right. This thread isn't aimed towards just anyone. It's strictly aimed towards the people who refuse to learn.

I don't see how 3v0 could have said this any other way without being accused of flaming or picking on specific people.

 

[Inquisitive]

I agree with 3v0.

I come here to learn and when possible try to help others that I can. Some want the answer on a silver platter but wish to withhold their own sweat equity.

 

[be80be]

I just want to no if I crazy. I thought i posted on this But I'm with the Man on this one too. people want fast food help for free as in we do it all.
It's Not going to help them.

 

[JonSea]

No, no, no. Sorry you misunderstood my reply! I totally agree with 3v0. I was talking about the kind of posters he's talking about, not him!

What I meant was, I've posted detailed replies, outlining what needs to be done, and the reply from the original poster of that topic is something like "I ignored everything you said, did some whacko other thing and IT STILL DOESN'T WORK!!!" That drives me crazy.

Sorry about not being clear. I'm in total agreement with 3v0.

 

[tcmtech]

What I meant was, I've posted detailed replies, outlining what needs to be done, and the reply from the original poster of that topic is something like "I ignored everything you said, did some whacko other thing and IT STILL DOESN'T WORK!!!" That drives me crazy.

We have all been there and I can only say just get used to it and accept it. I see it and experience it all the time and so does most every regular member here who has any level of applicable knowledge to whatever the subject is at hand.

The thing is how many times do you repeat yourself in a single thread before you just go with saying 'see post # X paragraph Y' and just leave it at that?