Advice please - need to find a circuit diagram for a 10 channel mixer...

[badger]

Hello

I am super new to electronics, but have an idea to connect 10 musicians accross a large space through a ten channel mixer scheme.
The longest distance between musician and mixing desk (which would have to be unmanned - automated - would be 1 mile) so I am wondering whether there would be an issue with delay? I have been assured by a sound guy I know that it all depends on the cable...

Either way, I would appreciated if someone could point me in the right direction to find a simple but concise circuit diagram showing microphone input and sound output for each of the 10 musicians...

Any suggestions?
All appreciated

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

First off, if you want a mixer, BUY ONE - you can buy high quality mixers at very little cost, far less than the components (or even the knobs) would cost you.

Time delay over a mile isn't a concern, but losses in the cable is - not a trivial thing to overcome, particularly if you want decent quality.

Next - 'automated mixer' - no such thing.

What on earth are you trying to do?.

 

[badger]

I am trying to get a group of musicians to play together - but at different points in a piece of music.

For example - (call musicians 1 - 10 )

Musician 1 (channel 1)starts playing
Musician 2 (channel 2) wants to play along to musician 1 - so he turns on to channel 1 and plays along to his music.
Musician 3 tunes into channel 2 and hears musicians 1 & 2 and hears them playing, and joins in...and so on.

Would this work, or am I being totally unrealistic?
And would there be sever feedback issues, or is there a system that would support this?
Also, I am trying to create it so that is could be done through a computer that wouldnt have to be manned - this would ideally be a long term project...

If the answer is yes to the first question (would this work) would you be able to tell me where I can get a circuit diagram to use to explain the project more clearly to collaborators?

 

[Torben]

In large studios and broadcast situations one system that is used is Audio over Ethernet. Good if you want an off-the-shelf solution. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_over_Ethernet


Torben

 

[badger]

Thankyou - I will check it out now.

 

[Torben]

Next - 'automated mixer' - no such thing.

Hi Nigel!

I know you are very knowledgeable in the audio field so I'm writing this to learn more about what you mean by the above. In my experience, automated mixers are quite common. Most of the ones I know of can be automated using simple onboard programs and/or by MIDI control messages from onboard or outboard MIDI sequencers or controllers.

Some other mixers can be set to automatically control gain--for instance, to assist in live mixing so that the engineer doesn't need to be constantly chasing faders all over the board.

Given that, I suspect you were talking about the automation of some other aspect of the mixer. Can you clarify that for me if you get a chance?


Thanks!

Torben

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

Hi Nigel!

I know you are very knowledgeable in the audio field so I'm writing this to learn more about what you mean by the above. In my experience, automated mixers are quite common. Most of the ones I know of can be automated using simple onboard programs and/or by MIDI control messages from onboard or outboard MIDI sequencers or controllers.

Control via MIDI (or some other computer system) isn't 'automation', it's merely 'remote control', or presetting the mixer to a previous stored condition.

An example would be for mixing down to master a CD, at a particular point in the song you might need to add an effect, or alter the gain on one particular track for a time, by storing these changes you can make the mixing down semi-automated.

Also, if you were doing live PA for a big tour, you might store basic settings for each song, modify them doing the sound check at each venue, then select that setting for each song, and manually tweak from there.

Or you might just write it down on a sheet of paper, and do it all manually

The last thing you want on a live gig is unreliability, or the mixer doing something strange on it's own.

Some other mixers can be set to automatically control gain--for instance, to assist in live mixing so that the engineer doesn't need to be constantly chasing faders all over the board.

AGC is absolutely the last thing you want on a mixer, particularly one used for a live performance. If a mixer ever had such a thing, the engineer would turn it off before he did anything else.

Given that, I suspect you were talking about the automation of some other aspect of the mixer. Can you clarify that for me if you get a chance?

Automation (in my opinion) means completely automatic action, not just presetting to a previous condition.

Has the OP even considered the cost of more than a mile of cable?.

 

[Torben]

Control via MIDI (or some other computer system) isn't 'automation', it's merely 'remote control', or presetting the mixer to a previous stored condition.

If you are defining an "automated mixer" as "a device which makes good mixing choices on its own" then I agree with you 100% (which is what you seem to be saying). However, I would contend that nobody really expects a magic sound engineer in a box, and that "automation" in pro audio just means that certain tasks can be preprogrammed. In the context of the industry the term is IMO correct.

An example would be for mixing down to master a CD, at a particular point in the song you might need to add an effect, or alter the gain on one particular track for a time, by storing these changes you can make the mixing down semi-automated.

I would have to call that fully automated. When I mix in Cubase and master in WaveLab I use the automation all the time (and I've used it live at times as well). I wouldn't consider it "semi-" automated just because I, and not the computer or mixer, made the original decisions about what needed to change at which points in time. The reason I consider it fully automated is that once I've made my choices, I can just sit back and listen while the multitrack is bounced to a stereo pair--and all the mixing, FX/EQ changes, etc happens with no intervention from me.

What I consider to be semi-automated would be more along the lines of what my 01V offers, without the benefit of outboard control from a sequencer or production software: 99 scenes which may be recalled at defined times, but without the near-infinite control I can get by controlling it from Cubase or similar (or a MIDI sequencer).

Also, if you were doing live PA for a big tour, you might store basic settings for each song, modify them doing the sound check at each venue, then select that setting for each song, and manually tweak from there.

Yes, I've done that more than once. . .

Or you might just write it down on a sheet of paper, and do it all manually

. . .and that, too. For live gigs, usually in the end what I've compromised on is your first suggestion, though (if I could bring the 01V *and* I have time beforehand to get it set up right). Either way (paper or computer memory) it is always of course necessary to change things to match the house sound system, monitoring, and room sound.

The last thing you want on a live gig is unreliability, or the mixer doing something strange on it's own.

Agreed 100%. Luckily decent rigs don't do anything you don't tell them to do--at least, after the first few software revisions. The trick is in being confident that you've given them the right instructions. That said, if you walk into a gig and the sound system uses a decent analog board (say maybe a Mackie or SoundCraft), it's pretty obvious how to set up the busses and monitoring etc. With a digital board it's not always obvious at all unless you happen to know the board.

AGC is absolutely the last thing you want on a mixer, particularly one used for a live performance. If a mixer ever had such a thing, the engineer would turn it off before he did anything else.

Actually there are quite a few of these things out there: **broken link removed**

But again the definition for these things is somewhat different--normally they are just to automatically mute and unmute (sometimes smoothly) audio inputs according to their signal levels. I wouldn't expect anybody to think that they are a kind of magic box you can plug your band into and have it come out sounding good.

This reminds me of a gig we played in Tuscon AZ. I may have been the first drummer in that sound guy's history to ask him to "please take the gate off the kick drum". The turkey wasn't using his ears; he was hoping that some default settings on a piece of gear could do his job for him. So my softer kicks wouldn't come through, but if I hit it even a little harder, suddenly it was just BOOM BOOM BOOM.

That little anecdote is just to point out that in essence I agree with you--there is no hardware (or software) available which will replace a good sound tech's ears and experience (as the saying goes: "ears and years").

Automation (in my opinion) means completely automatic action, not just presetting to a previous condition.

There's the difference between our definitions then (as I mentioned a few paragraphs back). I don't expect "automation" to mean "the machine decides how things should sound", since that's never been the definition in the industry and would require either magic or science fiction. "Automation" in audio has always simply meant that various parameters can be controlled in real time (or near enough) by previously recorded or programmed instructions.

Has the OP even considered the cost of more than a mile of cable?.

I don't know. If he wanted decent audio cable for that distance--including monitoring, and proper hardware on each end to drive and receive it--that would be a fair chunk of cash indeed.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification. I guess I have to disagree with you on the meaning of "automated mixer" though, since the meaning of "automated mixer" isn't (AFAIK) generally taken to mean "magic sound engineer in a box" but "mixer which can replay a recorded set of instructions". I agree that "automatic mixers" are not quite what they might sound like, but then I don't know that Joe Q. Public really thinks much about the difference between "automatic" and "automated".


Torben

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I don't know. If he wanted decent audio cable for that distance--including monitoring, and proper hardware on each end to drive and receive it--that would be a fair chunk of cash indeed.

Imagine using normal studio quality balanced cable (ignoring amplifiers etc.), just a single mile of cable at a few pounds a yard would be an absolute fortune

 

[Torben]

Imagine using normal studio quality balanced cable (ignoring amplifiers etc.), just a single mile of cable at a few pounds a yard would be an absolute fortune

No kidding. A single channel would be very painful at best. And what if he wanted multiple musicians at one or more locations? I looked into building a 50' 8/4 (eight input/four return) cable snake a few years ago. The cable cost alone was staggering. I'd hate to think of what a *mile* of even 2/2 would cost.


Torben

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

No kidding. A single channel would be very painful at best. And what if he wanted multiple musicians at one or more locations? I looked into building a 50' 8/4 (eight input/four return) cable snake a few years ago. The cable cost alone was staggering. I'd hate to think of what a *mile* of even 2/2 would cost.

I bought one the other year, 8/4 - can't remember the length, but it was quite cheap

It might be cheap and nasty, but it works perfectly - only used it about twice, never had a gig to do with a drummer since

I also bought a bass drum mike, which although it was shown in stock actually wasn't - and didn't arrive until after the last gig with a drummer, so it's never been used yet.

I hate drummers!

It's no coincidence that there's very little difference between 'drummer' and 'dumber'

Apologies if you're a drummer, as I think you mentioned earlier?.

 

[Torben]

I bought one the other year, 8/4 - can't remember the length, but it was quite cheap

It might be cheap and nasty, but it works perfectly - only used it about twice, never had a gig to do with a drummer since

I eventually realized to my chagrin that buying would be much cheaper than building.

I also bought a bass drum mike, which although it was shown in stock actually wasn't - and didn't arrive until after the last gig with a drummer, so it's never been used yet.

I hate drummers!

Hey!

It's no coincidence that there's very little difference between 'drummer' and 'dumber'

Q: What did the drummer get on his IQ test?

. . .

A: Drool.

Apologies if you're a drummer, as I think you mentioned earlier?.

No worries. I've heard 'em all. I'm also a recovering flautist (consistently tied for best in my district. . .erm. . in high school, 17-odd years ago).


Torben

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

No worries. I've heard 'em all. I'm also a recovering flautist (consistently tied for best in my district. . .erm. . in high school, 17-odd years ago).

My daughter plays flute as well, after bass guitar and keyboards, but before guitar, piano accordian, and drums - not to mention singing.

The only one she's not gigged at is drumming.