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Would you stretch out your hand that way to a friend who tries to help you?

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Boncuk

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That's what I found in the news about the oncoming bankrupt of Greece the other day.

No further comment.

Boncuk
 
Reminds me of an old story with a moral.
Copied from here: https://www.tensionnot.com/jokes/short_stories_moral_lessons


A little bird was flying south for the Winter. It was so cold the bird froze and fell to the ground into a large field.

While he was lying there, a cow came by and dropped some dung on him.
As the frozen bird lay there in the pile of cow dung, he began to realize how warm he was.

The dung was actually thawing him out!
He lay there all warm and happy, and soon began to sing for joy.

A passing cat heard the bird singing and came to investigate. Following the sound, the cat discovered the bird under the pile of cow dung, and promptly dug him out and ate him.

Morals of the story:
(1) Not everyone who s***s on you is your enemy.
(2) Not everyone who gets you out of s**t is your friend.
(3) And when you're in deep s**t, it's best to keep your mouth shut!

Germany has been through some hard times in recent history.
In the 1930s and 40s there was to unpleasantness which was started by a guy who was not even German!
In the 1980s and 90 with the reunification of the GDR and DDR, the financial situation was a bit grim.
Now with the EuroZone problems finance is tight and Germany is trying to help out a country which could not give a damn that it is flat broke and should NEVER have been allowed into the Euro in the first place.

So in answer to Boncuks question, no!

JimB
 
Here's a crazy idea I'm just going to throw out off the top of my head (I know this will probably sound completely nuts) - but maybe the Greek government could start collecting tax revenues?

Instead of this ridiculous "name and shame" list, they could maybe... I dunno.... put the top multimillionaire tax evaders in prison? Maybe stop the average greek from buying cars and major surgery with cash to evade paying taxes? Revenue collection might just possibly maybe somehow make a little more sense than all the bizarre austerity measures or screwing over the rest of Europe in debt swap deals.

Just a thought.
 
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The Greek bailout is still not a certainty: https://www.marketwatch.com/story/jitters-grow-over-greece-debt-swap-2012-03-06 And as a former bondholder in GM, I don't know that I would accept a deal for 1/2 of my face value in new Greek bonds that will have even greater reduced value on the open market and probably default in another 10 years. Sometimes, bankruptcy and a fresh start really is the best solution. I suspect in Greece as with GM, it really won't matter what the little guys want to do.

As for that display, unfortunately many Greeks don't feel that paying taxes is a responsibility of citizenship.

John
 
I have heard the term 'bailout' so many times in the last year concerning Greece that it's ridiculous! I'm sorry but the country has gone bankrupt no matter how many times people try to sugar coat the reality of it, all this talk of bailout and restructuring is nothing more than an attempt to settle the minds of the rest of the Euro union that there's still a floor under their feet, and that's not entirely certain at this point.

I'm from the US however, and I'm a little curious as to Boncuk's post and possible intentions with it, I just don't get it's implications.
 
I'm from the US however, and I'm a little curious as to Boncuk's post and possible intentions with it, I just don't get it's implications.

Hi Scead,

the main function of that kind of propaganda has psycholocial reasons.

No matter what you do you'll always have the opportuninity to blame your economic failure onto somebody else just by digging up 60 years old "war stories".

I was born during WWII (1942) and I swear I never was a Nazi. Nevertheless my 1 1/2 year old son was called a "dammn Nazi-Schwein" by a Dane when he played soccer on a camping site once. The Dane left his camping mobile in rage and turned my son down by shouting him more bad words.

I asked him why he did that and his clear reply was: "He's the son of a "Nazi-Schwein".

In the meanwhile there were a lot of campers assembled on scence and the camping site owner showed up as well. The whole thing looked like vikings were holding a "ting".

After the ting was ended he left with his car, camping mobile and tent.

Comparing that to Greece there is no big differerence. Our chancellor should have rejected any financial help for Greece right from the start. Greece is a barrel without bottom (thereby degrading the exchange rate of the € by 20%) and will be it forever if they are not forced to get their "****" together.

I hope that'll answer your question.

Regards

Boncuk
 
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Thank you very much Boncuk, I understand now, at least within the limited context of this thread.

I think with the concerns of Greece and the general discord of financial issues in the Euro union as a whole it boils down simply to basic mismanagement. They instituted guidelines without enforcement, and many countries ignored them.

A great idea poorly implemented is a bad idea.
 
A great idea poorly implemented is a bad idea.

Thanks for your understanding. I just don't understand why one single "third world" country should be able to blackmail the countries who have a decent economy to pull it down to their "standard".

80% of the German population are ready to return to "DM" again to replace the "€".

That will probably solve all questions about the European Market. (RIP)

(Germany seems to have made it to the paymaster of the EU.)

Boncuk
 
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I think with the concerns of Greece and the general discord of financial issues in the Euro union as a whole it boils down simply to basic mismanagement. They instituted guidelines without enforcement, and many countries ignored them.

Greece (and a few others) should never have been allowed in, they were effectively bankrupt BEFORE they adopted the Euro, it was crazy allowing them to do so and expect them to magically change they way they carried on.
 
@Nigel, I agree completely. I suspect the reason Greece and the others were let in was mostly to show solidarity and to give the Euro credibility. Maybe the hope (or prayer?) was that those troubled countries would evolve some fiscal responsibility. Unfortunately, that hasn't happened.

We all know that one house can pull down the values in a whole neighborhood. What's the best solution? Burn it down or help to rebuild? If it is allowed to burn down, the fire may spread. I think at this time, the solid economies of the Eurozone are saying they will help rebuild again, but this may be the last time. From what I have read, some view it as a controlled burn. No one doubts that the present government of Greece will fail to implement meaningful reforms, which is not unlike the US by the way.

@Boncuk, I'll make a gentleman's wager that the Euro will be gone or clearly on its way out before the end of 2016, if not sooner. The fear I have is whether Western economies will survive the collateral damages from that change as well as from inflation in China.

John
 
As a leftover from world war 2, in British popular culture there is under the surface a feeling the the German is the "bad guy".

The less well educated the Brit, the more he looks on the Kraut* as the bad guy.

From my own point of view, Germany is a good place to visit and the poeple who I have met there have been fine.
However, when the guy at the airport asks to see my passport saying "ausweiss bitte!" I cannot help but think of the old war films where the escaped POW is trying to get past some check point or other and the guard want to see his (forged) documents.

* Can I say Kraut on ETO? Ooops I think I just did.
For thse who do not know, Kraut is a derogatory term for a German person.

Boncuk, is there similar term in German for us Brits?
I know that the Frogs (French) call us "le ros bif", (the roast beef).

Any other nationalities I can rub up the wrong way?
Lets here from the rest of the world what you call us Brits when we have behaved badly!

JimB
(currently on a tropical island in the South China Sea)
 
@Boncuk, I'll make a gentleman's wager that the Euro will be gone or clearly on its way out before the end of 2016, if not sooner. The fear I have is whether Western economies will survive the collateral damages from that change as well as from inflation in China.

At least the UK weren't stupid enough to join the Euro :D
 
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One of the few things that Grasping Gordon got right!

JimB
 
If there is something I despise, it is the leveling from the bottom. Instead of getting better so they could be like the best, they try to bring the best down so they could be the same. Misery likes company.

In another genre, there are many, many people who like the warmth and comfort of incompetence, and who would like other people to spoon feed them. You see it in everyday life, and you see it here on ETO. "Plz help me, can you do my project for me", and then they'll try to make people feel bad "I thought people here were nice and helpful".



Here is something to think about:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(nominal)

Now let me ask myself: If I was Germany, why on Earth would I "KEEP" helping someone who doesn't want to improve and who RELIES on me and EXPECTS me to help him ?

If I asked something on the forum and I got advice and still, I didn't apply the advice I was given and still keep asking advice about that same thing... Still doing the same mistake.. Wouldn't that frustrate experienced members and prevent them from helping me .. ever again ? Maybe they'll think I have changed and help me some other time, and then figure out that I didn't really change and I'm still the same incompetent .. Would it help me if I tried to make them feel bad, like if they're expected to help me despite the fact that I do NOT make any effort to improve ?

Should you give money to everyone because you're rich despite the fact that these don't do anything to pick themselves up and be self sufficient ? Eternally assisted beings to which you give, and it's not even your "duty" to give them; yet, they get angry when you're late to give them your OWN money or don't feel like giving them any of the money you WORKED for.

As to Germany ..

It always made me wonder, the "History" stigmatizing Germany and reducing it to one man, forgetting that it is a country amongst others. Do we forget other nations who attacked countries they had no business with, justifying invasion(s) with arguments as solid as a teenager's hymen ? Are we that forgetful ? We don't have to go to Ancient History to see such things .. Come to think about it, we don't even have to go as far as the World War II to have examples of such behavior.

Countries do what they do for their interest. Usually, it all boils down to money and power, then power and leveraging it to get money. Then using that money to buy friends or using that power to get people paying you to be their friends. Nobody can say he can't give an example of racketing on a state level.

Soldiers die for a man in a suit. Of course, the man will have a campaign and try to hit the "patriotic" chord, and soldiers will believe him. And even if they don't, they still have to go. We're fighting for our country and our freedom. Really ? Isn't being 20.000 miles away from home a little bit "far" from home? Or is it that you're lost.

Sometimes, the two men in suits for which soldiers die, will strike a deal and become "friends". Let's drink champagne and have a minute of silence for the dead.. Actually, let's make it ten seconds, we're a bit in a hurry. Send flowers to the families and tell them how brave their son/father/husband was, and how he saved "the free world" or "democracy" .. Make the PR guys chose the words. Men like chess. I do too, but nobody dies for me, and I'm certainly not wealthy.

How's Germany different from that ? One man did what he did, and he's not the first, nor is he the last to do what he did. Can you mention one powerful country which is white as snow ? Which didn't have colonies ? That's the word that was used to call invaded countries once upon a time. Now, people are more "politically" correct and afraid. Now it's called "protected territories" or " a country that needs our help to build roads and education and democracy". The funny thing is that roads and education were fine before the "helper" came. And there was a semblant of peace. Maybe not democracy, but give me one democracy in the World. One "true" democracy. One size doesn't fit everyone. That's why there is opposition, and that's why there are elections, and that's why there will always be unsatisfied people. If there was a "100%" solution, everyone would've adopted it, and it's stupid (or playing stupid) to think (and make others think) that you have the answer to their problems and help them (by force).

It always boiled down to money and power, from Ancient History, to The Borgias and The Tudors, to Recent History to the Present Day.

The only different thing is that in each period, someone was in a position to lecture others on things they shouldn't do (but which HE was doing of course). Everybody knew he did those things, but he was in a POSITION to lecture. He had the power to be hypocrite.

I don't know, but here, people have the utmost respect for Germany, Japan and nations who fell down, yet, arose from ashes like a phoenix.




PS:

A good reading would be John Maynard Keynes' book "The Economic Consequences of Peace". Written in 1919 (The context being the end of World War I and the Versailles Conference, to which he took part).

PPS: On the Euro Zone topic .. Here's a funny video that went viral

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aC19fEqR5bA
 
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As a leftover from world war 2, in British popular culture there is under the surface a feeling the the German is the "bad guy".
Not my experience at all. I sense only warmth towards Germany and German people. But I guess that watching films might give a distorted impression.
 
Can you mention one powerful country which is white as snow ? Which didn't have colonies ? That's the word that was used to call invaded countries once upon a time.

Canada?
 
As a leftover from world war 2, in British popular culture there is under the surface a feeling the the German is the "bad guy".

The less well educated the Brit, the more he looks on the Kraut* as the bad guy.

From my own point of view, Germany is a good place to visit and the poeple who I have met there have been fine.
However, when the guy at the airport asks to see my passport saying "ausweiss bitte!" I cannot help but think of the old war films where the escaped POW is trying to get past some check point or other and the guard want to see his (forged) documents.

* Can I say Kraut on ETO? Ooops I think I just did.
For thse who do not know, Kraut is a derogatory term for a German person.

Boncuk, is there similar term in German for us Brits?
I know that the Frogs (French) call us "le ros bif", (the roast beef).

Any other nationalities I can rub up the wrong way?
Lets here from the rest of the world what you call us Brits when we have behaved badly!

Hi JimB,

all those "titles" are derived either by typical food or by hearsay about a certain kind of behaviour of a nations's population.

Calling a German a "Kraut" is derived from "sour kraut" which is white cabbage with sour milk and a bit of vinegar (preferrably apple vinegar). Well fermented sour kraut takes excellent care of digestion and an overall healthy digestional tract. Eating boiled pork legs or Nurnberger Bratwurst with sour kraut is a MUST when you go to Germany.

So I don't consider it abusive to be called a "Kraut".

English people have most of those fancy "nicknames" like "limie", "island ape", "jerrie", while US citizens are called "yankees" or "yanks".

Going to the USA/South Carolina people will probably ask you a question: "Are you a turtle?" There is only one correct answer: "You bet your sweet little ass, I am!" (No offense meant here!) :)

Even canadian citizens are called "canooks".

All those titles are never meant offensive - just gaming with words.

JimB
(currently on a tropical island in the South China Sea)
 
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Considdering that sauerkraut was a staple in Chinese food long before the time of Genghis Khan, why are the Chinese not called krauts (but many other terms in English, especially "Chink" in NA Enlish). Marco Polo preferred to bring back noodles over kraut upon his return from the far East to Italy (btw: he stopped over in Enland to invent the game). Go figure!

To go back to the original post:
Boncuk was born in 1942 Germany, like myself. He was brought up under the same de-nazification regimen as was I. The swastika, to this day, is illigal (I believe) to be shown in Germany, excepting documentaries. I recall, hearded into the gym (not unlike the victims of the Nazis), and forced to watch films of these "events" at age 8. The German word "Gemeinshuld" (communal guilt) most likely best describes his reaction to that poster. I feel this way too. E
 
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