Why are poorly supported pcb layout packages so popular?

[jpanhalt]

Why not have both? That is the best of both worlds.

Let me ask you, assuming you use Windows, do you use the graphical interface when you print something (e.g., home>file>print) or the command language, CTR+P?

John

 

[Flyback]

ok, going back to dxf import, I am pretty sure that can be done with eagle.

 

[misterT]

Let me ask you, assuming you use Windows, do you use the graphical interface when you print something (e.g., home>file>print) or the command language, CTR+P?

CTR+P just pops up the same dialog than hitting the print-icon that good GUI software has. Maybe in Eagle you have to go through all "home>file>print" -thing and learn to use the keypad for the shortcut. Good software is intuitive. I don't need to use keyboard to print things. I can do all that with mouse.. you know.. the thing that was invented 30 years ago (Jobs/Gates.. whoever.).. when graphical user interface was invented (published by microsoft, stolen (bought cheaply) from xerox).

 

[Flyback]

Well, I work as electronic designer, (smps), and I have used cadstar, altium, pulsonix and eagle.
Eagle was MASSIVELY simpler than the others....it was easy, I never got stuck.
I once took on a smps contract, and they insisted on cadstar...so I bought cadstar for ~£2500.
I couldn't get into it quick enough, and they got rid of me before i'd really cut into the design of the smps. I had previously used cadstar at a domestic goods company, but still struggled.
After being sacked, I stopped using cadstar, but 8 months later, on the anniversary of my cadstar purchase, Zuken sent me a court summons demanding that I pay them £270 maintenance........I told them that I didn't want any maintenance, and that I didn't use cadstar any more......but the court summons kept coming, and I had to pay cadstar off the £270.
I found out later that Zuken (who administer cadstar) did actually send me a letter offering me to stop the maintenance about two months before my anniversary of purchase.....but I only "skim" read it at the time, as it was from cadstar, so I wasnt interested, and I never dreamed that they would court summons me if I didn't pay the maintenance......I just assumed that if I didn't answer the letter then they'd stop my maintenance.

there was virtually no google or "general forum" type support for cadstar, altium or pulsonix.......for pulsonix I used the sparkfun forum a few times, and some guy called Leon used to answer me and say "its in the manual"......I read the manual, but couldn't do it from that.....I did eventually get the pulsonix pcb done....but it was nowhere near as good as I would have done it in eagle....as I struggled continuously

 

[misterT]

Well, I work as electronic designer, (smps), and I have used cadstar, altium, pulsonix and eagle.
Eagle was MASSIVELY simpler than the others....it was easy, I never got stuck.
I once took on a smps contract, and they insisted on cadstar...so I bought cadstar for ~£2500.
I couldn't get into it quick enough, and they got rid of me before i'd really cut into the design of the smps. I had previously used cadstar at a domestic goods company, but still struggled.
After being sacked, I stopped using cadstar, but 8 months later, on the anniversary of my cadstar purchase, Zuken sent me a court summons demanding that I pay them £270 maintenance........I told them that I didn't want any maintenance, and that I didn't use cadstar any more......but the court summons kept coming, and I had to pay cadstar off the £270.
I found out later that Zuken (who administer cadstar) did actually send me a letter offering me to stop the maintenance about two months before my anniversary of purchase.....but I only "skim" read it at the time, as it was from cadstar, so I wasnt interested, and I never dreamed that they would court summons me if I didn't pay the maintenance......I just assumed that if I didn't answer the letter then they'd stop my maintenance.

there was virtually no google or "general forum" type support for cadstar, altium or pulsonix.......for pulsonix I used the sparkfun forum a few times, and some guy called Leon used to answer me and say "its in the manual"......I read the manual, but couldn't do it from that.....I did eventually get the pulsonix pcb done....but it was nowhere near as good as I would have done it in eagle....as I struggled continuously

Mastering Eagle and crying out for "general forum type support" just screams professionality. No google or "general forum" type support.. haha.

 

[Flyback]

professionality

..To be honest , I never worry about being "professional".....just getting a good PCB done...and Eagle lets me do that...its ease means I can fashion the switching current loops to perfection...........and fashion the copper pours to perfection etc etc....I know people who think its fine to let the rectifier loop route right round the whole pcb, and if the whole thing looks "neat" and professional, then they think that's fine.

 

[jpanhalt]

@Flyback

As a brief add-on to your comments, recently I rebuilt my PC and loaded Win7. As I was reloading my applications (such as Adobe CS3 suite), I checked on current versions, which seem to be available only on lease. I think we may be seeing the end to owning software. A recent case in the US on the resale of copyrighted material may hasten that conversion.

Here's a snippet from the Adobe site:


Note that both PhotoShop and Illustrator are lease only.

John

 

[misterT]

Eagle lets me do that...its ease means I can fashion the switching current loops to perfection..

What exactly is the feature in Eagle that lets you perfect your design.. feature that no other software has? Maybe Eagle is the only software you know and you just don't want to learn to use any other software. If you master Eagle, then I understand that it is the thing for you. You learned it because it is free.. like thousands of other hobbyists. It does not mean that the software is great.

 

[Flyback]

The features of Eagle that i need are easy to use for people such as myself, who don't have time to get into big software packages, as the design itself , consumes my time...If I get stuck in pulsonix, altium or cadstar, I am stuck long time....if I get stuck in eagle, I quickly find a google ref on it, or some kind folk give me forum help on it....I rarely get stuck now in eagle, but now and again I do...like lately when I was measuring , and it was snapping to a line I didn't want to measure from.

So the thing I like about eagle is the fact that theres so much support freely available for it that I don't ever get stuck, and don't spend time stewing over problems. Sometimes I go to a company where they have in house layout guys, so maybe I don't layout for say 6 months....but then when i come back to eagle, I can be up and running quick.

I wont lie to you though...................I mean, if I could somehow implant superb altium user knowledge into my brain and keep it there forever, then id be altium user (if someone payed me for it cuzz its expensive)

 

[misterT]

I just can't understand why you talk about how easy it is to get solutions when you get stuck.. Not a single argument why eagle is good.. only arguments how easy it is to get support.. like that is the routine when you use eagle. Work for 5 minutes and then google for solution for some problem. Here is a newsflash for you: You do not need routinely use support when you use good software.

 

[Flyback]

when you first use any package you do need support (unless you are a natural IT expert which I am not)...I am through with asking for eagle help now, but I may need it if I take a years break from it and come back to it....just like coming back to any other package.
Any spare time I have is spent updating on new ic's for smps design etc....I do not have any time at all for "studying" pcb layout packages.

I just did a 4 layer eagle pro pcb comprising 2 smps, 64 pin micro ,loads of control cctry...it was a doddle in eagle pro

 

[misterT]

I just did a 4 layer eagle pro pcb comprising 2 smps, 64 pin micro ,loads of control cctry...it was a doddle in eagle pro

I bet it is a doddle with any software you are familiar with. No need to bash other software just because you are not familiar with it. Or just because you can't afford it.

 

[Flyback]

I quite agree, but what is bashable, is using high end packages like altium for cinchy pcbs with a few components on them like say a 5W led driver....then when a designer comes in he is forced to use some package for which he cannot get support quickly enough.

Another thing that is bashable is the inadequate support for high end packages...which is because there apps engineers are moonlighting as layout engineers, and so do not like to provide good, clear tutorials.

 

[RichTheDude]

I hate Eagle. The user interface is bad. Overly complicated. The fact that you need constantly google up problems tells you that the software is crappy. Yes, you will get solutions easily because there are many people using the software and many people are having the same problems you have.. but if I buy a decent software all I have to do is read the manual and get to work. No need to google around random forums searching for solution to some problem that does not make sense. For hobbyists I recommend Labcenter Proteus. It is not free, but not expensive either. If someone is planning to pay for Eagle.. use the money to buy Proteus instead.

Totally agree, in my opinion Labcenter's Proteus is orders of magnitude better than Eagle, and it is the best package as far as I am concerned for doing conventional designs. I have just finished a 4 layer design (~1200 traces, ~320 parts) with the works top end copy (no limitations), and it was a pleasantly painless job - multiple symbol components? No problem - everything is rather intuitive. I have done bigger designs in the past as well.

I think using Eagle for such a design would have gotten me sectioned! Last time I tried it, absolutely nothing seemed intuitive. If and when I have to buy an ECAD package for personal use, my money will be going to Labcentre (I do not have Altium money!). I would rather spend money to get a job done quickly (without having to ask support or read manuals). Also, I have yet to need help OR read the manual for proteus.

 

[Flyback]

can you show an example of a nice beginners guide tutorial for proteus?

eg like this.......
https://tangentsoft.net/elec/movies/tt07.html

the manuals tend to be written by apps engineers....apps engineers are moonlighting as layout engineers, and so do not like to provide good, clear tutorials/manuals

 

[RichTheDude]

can you show an example of a nice beginners guide tutorial for proteus?

the manuals tend to be written by apps engineers....apps engineers are moonlighting as layout engineers, and so do not like to provide good, clear tutorials/manuals

My point is, I did not need them, nor have others I know needed tutorials. If you need a manual or tutorial to get to the point of a basic schematic and PCB, I would not say it is a problem of poor support, more of a problem of a poor interface.

Quick google search reveals many exist, this for example : https://www.theengineeringprojects.com/2013/03/a-complete-tutorial-on-how-to-use.html and this https://www.slideshare.net/Mashood/pcb-design-using-proteus-18385708

 

[jpanhalt]

I bet it is a doddle with any software you are familiar with. No need to bash other software just because you are not familiar with it. Or just because you can't afford it.

Couldn't agree more. If the shoe fits...

John

 

[misterT]

can you show an example of a nice beginners guide tutorial for proteus?

Comes with the software when you buy it (or download the demo). It has very good documentation.. which is important.
You don't find many tutorials for proteus mainly because there is no need.

Does Eagle come with good documentation.. I think not. See how simple documentation Proteus has.. that is because the software is very easy to use. I bet Eagle documentation would be 500 pages and still would not cover all the problems you may have with it.

 

[throbscottle]

Just my 2p's worth here, as an amateur. I tried Eagle free version briefly, didn't like it, too much to learn at one go for someone unused to CAD. Started using DesignSpark - love it, so easy and mostly intuitive. However after reading this discussion, I might give Eagle another go.

Re keyboard shortcuts - I use as many as I can remember, much quicker than point & click

 

[Flyback]

there are various reasons why all of us will be biased toward one pcb layout package or another.
Now that I know eagle, i'd like to be able to use it in companies, so I want companies to use it...pure greed and self concern I admit.

My only premise for using eagle has always been that I believe it to be the one package that has the most support available on google, youtube, and various forums. If there is another package, that has more of this kind of support (sorry but I find the manuals of most packages very confusing), then i'm positive toward that package as well.

I wonder what 'Easy PC' is like for google type support?

I worked in one company where the engineers couldn't suss cadstar from the manual, and they had to keep paying big bucks for the cadstar rep to come and give them lessons......cadstar slaughtered me....I payed 2500£ for it, and had to just bin it.....I've still got the disc and wonder if its legal for me to sell it?

"And speaking of Altium's web tutorials.......did anyone really understand them?....."hi there, Marty here...." they always used to start with that....that was the only bit I understood