What is best alternative to run cars at present ?

[jpanhalt]

As they say, there are liars, damn liars, and statisticians. In the US, diesel costs roughly $4.00 per gallon and gasoline costs $3.00 per gallon. If those figures are corrected for the energy content factor or cost to a constant, equivalent basis, the Prius moves up several notches.

Obviously the Citroen hybrid still is at the top.

John

 

[BrownOut]

See - if you look, you find

One or two flimsy rinky-dinks. Not exactly what we've been discussing.

Your wonderful Prius only scrapes tenth!.

Is that the Honda Insight Petrol Hybrid I see in first place? BTW, the Prius is definitely not a 'supermini' It's a mid-size sedan. Much more practical than little toy cars.

 

[tcmtech]

As they say, there are liars, damn liars, and statisticians. In the US, diesel costs roughly $4.00 per gallon and gasoline costs $3.00 per gallon. If those figures are corrected for the energy content factor or cost to a constant, equivalent basis, the Prius moves up several notches.

Very true when looked at as price per unit of energy Vs MPG or KML but then us guys with the modified engine propane burners start getting up there too!

My old 1987 Mazda B2600 has leveled out at upper teens, combined driving cycles, on propane which costs me about $1.75 a gallon now locally. Compare that to gasoline here that typically runs about twice that price and my cost per mile for the old 4WD beater pickup is equal to or slightly even better than that of many compact American econo cars let alone small to mid sized non diesel pickups.

 

[DJDAudio]

Glad I found this Topic!! Allot of Valid points in here.

The Theory of regenerative breaking is sound and has great merit, but how it go about it is pathetic.

most hybrids will convert the rotational energy of stopping power to electrical potential that is then converted to chemical potential ( battery ) that is then stored and then converted to electrical potential again and then converted to rotational energy and imparted to the road. there is HUGE loses in every energy conversion not to mention storage.

I designed many years ago a regen brake system for my bicycle, for I live in PA and we have tons of hills with stop signs at the bottom, so allot of energy is lost stopping then you have to peddle all the way up the next hill,

Simple eddy current clutch would spin up a flywheel that would store my energy that could then be put back to the wheel to assist me up the next hill.

They need to build a hybrid that will use carbon fiber flywheels for energy storage with eddy current coupling to the wheels. All rotational energy much much more efficient.

Fly wheels are unique for you double the wight you double the energy stored, but if you double the speed you quadruple the energy stored, it is a logarithmic curve, NASA has in use large Carbon fiber flywheels that spin at millions of RPM that store Solar power in the Space Station. Lead acid batteries are far to heavy to have in space. also flywheels have no 'memory' so deep cycling is not a issue.

Now Safety, the nice part is high RPM low mass flywheels can be contained in a reasonable way, they have little mass to explode outside of the housing in the event of failure.

As for turning or changing direction Persesion becomes a factor, so a gimble mount would need to be used.




My point is , the key to efficiency is consistency, Stop and go is a huge energy waste, not to mention hills, down you waste energy as heat and up, you waste energy storing potential energy.

We need a way for the 'power plant' to see the use as a constant flat road at a constant speed, so adding and subtracting from a gas engine with 'rotational' energy will do this and keep the engine in its power band.


I can see down the road a internal combustion engine that is turbine in nature like listed above, but encased to grab all the parasitic heat that is generated to be used in a heat exchanger to run a small gas expander to run a 'asistive displacement pump' think of a refrigeration system in reverse.

This would allow the 90%+ wasted energy as heat to be utilized.


Currently the government has had a long standing contest, for anyone to prove or come up with an alternative energy storage device that has equal too or greater energy density then gasoline. To date nothing has come close.

 

[DJDAudio]

We are all electronic Guru's in here lets team up and try to find a way to harness the ultimate electromagnetic wave. ... Light!

All we need is a silicon chip that can resinate at ~420THZ we can then build a 'light antenna' that can convert the EMF of Light directly to electricity at much higher efficiency.

 

[shortbus=]

Or build a more efficient HHO generator

 

[tcmtech]

How about we try building better idiots. That would save a load of energy and problems in all aspects of life.

For instance 53,000 - 60,000 RPM, **broken link removed** , is far far far short of

NASA has in use large Carbon fiber flywheels that spin at millions of RPM that store Solar power in the Space Station.

I am just saying...

 

[DJDAudio]

How about we try building better idiots. That would save a load of energy and problems in all aspects of life.

For instance 53,000 - 60,000 RPM, **broken link removed** , is far far far short of

I am just saying...

Haha thanks, Numbers where never my strong Suit

Very cool Device though!

**broken link removed**

 

[Sceadwian]

These types of flywheel energy storage units are actually starting to be used on the planet bound energy grid for frequency control on a few megawatt scale. The thing that sucks about them is if one of them ever mechanically fails catastrophically the amount of energy they can dump from the forces involved is enough to make high energy explosives look safe as a energy storage medium.

I work at a machine shop that has a Cincinnati centerless grinder that has a flywheel that weighs a few hundred pounds and spins at a few thousand RPM and just the instantly available energy stored in that little wheel terrifies me, the mechanical stresses are incredible. One additional reason they use use the flywheel storage on the space station is because it has the added effect of gyroscopic stabilization.

Odd though I can't seem to find information later than 2000 about the system.

 

[neptune]

I think this topic has got out of my leauge.

My proffesor use to say
natural gas is going to last 30 yrs
petrol is going to last 90 years
and coal is going to last 200 years ... so
will the future be coal burned steam cars ?
or why dont we use nuclear cars that may become feasible after 100 years from now

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

I think this topic has got out of my leauge.

My proffesor use to say
natural gas is going to last 30 yrs
petrol is going to last 90 years
and coal is going to last 200 years ... so
will the future be coal burned steam cars ?
or why dont we use nuclear cars that may become feasible after 100 years from now

Anything to replace existing cars requires a leap forward in technology - electric would be fine, IF (and it's a very BIG if) some way can be found of storing it cheaply, lightly, and efficiently. But even if it is, it's then a question of generating that electricity cheaply and cleanly.

Hydrogen power is a possibility, and is just a way of storing power - but it's got far more problems than petrol or diesel. It could certainly happen a few decades down the line though?.

 

[shortbus=]

When in school during the 1950 -1960's all the magazines like Popular Science, Popular Mechanics,etc said we would be driving flying nuclear powered cars in 2010 or so. Look where we are, still using petroleum. It will be around for most of us here's future. Maybe our grandchildren or great grandchildren will have something different, but wouldn't really count on it.

 

[Nigel Goodwin]

When in school during the 1950 -1960's all the magazines like Popular Science, Popular Mechanics,etc said we would be driving flying nuclear powered cars in 2010 or so. Look where we are, still using petroleum. It will be around for most of us here's future. Maybe our grandchildren or great grandchildren will have something different, but wouldn't really count on it.

In some respects little has changed, but in others there have been vast leaps forward - such as computers and electronics.

None of the old magazines or SciFi books predicted home computers, or mobile phones.

 

[jpanhalt]

Radiation was also used to treat acne in those days. We could have nuclear-powered cars, except for the unreasonable fears some people have. The would probably use electricity as in intermediate energy transfer "medium," as opposed to steam for example. How different is that from running electric cars on electricity from nuclear generating stations?

As for my great grandchildren, I fear they will be driving donkey carts.

John

 

[BrownOut]

These types of flywheel energy storage units are actually starting to be used on the planet bound energy grid for frequency control on a few megawatt scale. The thing that sucks about them is if one of them ever mechanically fails catastrophically the amount of energy they can dump from the forces involved is enough to make high energy explosives look safe as a energy storage medium.

I work at a machine shop that has a Cincinnati centerless grinder that has a flywheel that weighs a few hundred pounds and spins at a few thousand RPM and just the instantly available energy stored in that little wheel terrifies me, the mechanical stresses are incredible.

Have you ever seen old sheetmetal punching macines? We had one at a place I worked while I was in college. It had a huge flywheel that would be spun up by an electric motor. An electric clutch would engage the flywheel with the punching mechanism. Don't know if that technology is still in use. The machine was pretty old, even back in those days.

 

[neptune]

I found an intersesting and a very long Blog

https://ideas.4brad.com/archives/000094.html

 

[tcmtech]

As someone who has actively played around with and experimented with different types of AE and fuel over the years I can say with considerable certainty that far more people are like me in regards to the main concern about what fuel I use is what does it cost me.

Thats it, no major concerns about environmental impact just good old pocket book impact. I burn propane in my primary vehicles as much as I can. Its not because its more environmentally friendly rather it just because around here its cheap and I know the tricks behind making an engine fuel efficient when running it. When I cant burn propane I strip out as much of the emissions system components and modify the engines as far as I can cost justify them to gain any fuel economy increase.

If propane gets too high then some day I plan on going diesel. Not because diesel fuel is cheap around here or more efficient but simply because I know the tricks to making diesel engines run on old used oil and E85 blends for cheap.

When it comes to what the fuel economy numbers are of any vehicle I never go by what some independent study or company rating says. I just go by what me and the people I know say they get which is based on real world driving conditions and what we put out at the gas pump. Any study can say a particular vehicle gets X fuel economy but if everyone I know who owns that vehicle says they get Z fuel economy and X is rare to never I will believe them first. After all they are the ones paying for the fuel and doing the driving every day!

 

[neptune]

Now if you really want efficiency, the VW L1 diesel/electric hybrid gets 240 MPG. link Beat that gas-only drivers!

it says it will be available in 2010 !
why havent i seen this in market ?

 

[BrownOut]

Well, it said limited production. There are probably issues such as cost to deal with before they become widely available. There is also a question of practicality. Many people, including most americans, won't buy such a small car with no room for cargo.

 

[tcmtech]

For more accurate info,
http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/09/volkswagen-l1-concept/
http://www.greencar.com/articles/volkswagen-l1-diesel-electric-hybrid-achieves-170-mpg.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_1-litre_car

It appears that its more final design gets around 170 MPG on average according to the majority of reports.

All in all its kind of neat in a way. A two seater 900 pound diesel hybrid go cart with a top speed of around 100 MPH!

I wonder how it does in cold winters and snow and long distance interstate speed driving?