Water Leak Detector

[Inquisitive]

Rent a Ditch Witch? Run a new flex line.

 

[ronsimpson]

Yesterday I drove 1 hour to a town that actually had electronics for sale. No luck. Came home with nothing.
So I ordered these three microphones. Look at the last one. Built in headphone amplifier!
They will not be here for a long while. (postage from China) The plan is to wait until it is snowing to work in this!

I have been told I will be entertaining relatives for the holidays. I will not be a wet cold hole in the ground.

Below freezing, strong wind, 5 feet in the ground, nee deep in ice water.
OR
Watching my in-laws/outlaws eat everything in sight.
If there really is a Santa; Please send a backhoe and not relatives.

 

[Inquisitive]

How about an old fashioned work-bee. Remember the old barn raising parties the Amish had. Toss a shovel to a relative for a meal... it's a thought

 

[ronsimpson]

Rent a Ditch Witch? Run a new flex line.

I real want to.
To meet code, I need to run two 1.5" lines. About 2500 feet of flex.
We have two houses on one line now and the government thinks the are on two lines. (I have two water meters at the road only one is in use) All that needs fixed with two permits. I have to dig under the foundations. AND I need to cross electrical lines and other water lines. This is not a fun project.

 

[killivolt]

2 lines will = 2500ft. So the total distance is around 1.250ft correct?

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Some help. nice pics: https://www.subsurfaceleak.com/find_leaks.html

 

[killivolt]

Ron, Whats the diameter of the existing water line and how big is the flex? I used to work for the water dept; a local municipal. I fixed several and have replaced and ran new; tapping water mains etc.

If you try pulling the pipe your going to run into trouble. Especially at 1,250; I could see it happening possibly if you split the PVC as you pull with a bell shaped cone slightly bigger than the pipe. But; you will still get drag and it might not split opening up in a straight line further aggravating the pull.

It would be nice if you could score the pipe on each side as you pull increasing the chance of the split forming on each side of the pipe. But; you would still form pressure on each side as the flex is pulled inward then the surrounding dirt and pressure of cut sides of the PVC collapse back on to a dry flex pipe. Thus, cutting into the new flex. It would be nice if it were slightly smaller than the PVC. I don't see how you can pull that far with out removing the existing pipe material. Most likely it will damage the new flex.

Its always easier when the ground is wet from a leak at a shorter distance; allowing expansion in areas where it is "not wet" will be hard going. I would be prepared for both excavation vs pulling the pipe. No need to go without water and it's just good practice to plan for the worse possible case.

I'm use to dealing with Copper and Galvanized pipe for residential water lines; your chances would increase dramatically if it were. PVC you can't just hook onto and pull without it breaking.

When we did a pull; we used a flare bell fitting to a roll of copper and the flare bell was larger than the copper roll. When we pulled the Galvanized pipe the bell created a drag through hole larger than the copper lowering the friction and decreasing chances of damaging the copper pipe.

As I think about it a little more; you could push the steel cable through the pipe and mark your ground using a metal detector at 100ft locations dig 10 holes and pull 100ft at a time. But; even at 100ft seems like a really long distance to pull. I've never pulled more than 40 to 50ft ever.

Hopefully you can find the leak; like Mike said in post #11. If the snow will show it for you in that area. I think your chances could increase putting warm air into the pipe typically from a compressor it will be a nice warm temp and just let it run for awhile the escaping heat will melt the snow above as the heat rises. Heat naturally flows to cold following the 2nd law of thermodynamics; instead of going down to ground temp as they are normally higher than the surface temp above in winter. It might prove repairing a leak on a pipe with such long distances will prove to be easier in winter; using heat flow

To bad your having this problem; but it sure make one think. What would you do?

Ron,

Best wishes and Merry Christmas.

kv

Edit: Careful with to high air-pressure. 15 pounds should be plenty just run it for 2 or 3 hrs; worse case over night if you have to; as the temp lowers even further at night.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

That length of pipe is a way long. Again, there is equipment hat can freeze a pipe and make a plug on static water which you can have. If you could freeze it, a binary search technique would find it with few holes, but digging 4 feet is a chore in itself.

So, yea, the listening does seem like the best option.

 

[kinarfi]

PVC pipe, what size, can the ends be isolated, I am assuming this is culinary water. Can you "salt" the water and apply a voltage, or a radio signal to the water and look for it's return, I used to use a "tick tracer" to find open wires, in this case, if you can isolate the ends and apply an isolated higher voltage from something like a wall wart transform hooked up backwards without the diodes GRANTED, THIS COULD BE DANGEROUS. If you can get your hands on the right type of tick tracer, you won't need to isolate any thing, it has it's own signal injector, but salt may still help it.
Another idea would be to isolate the ends, measure the resistance to the house electrical ground, or apply 120 vac each end and measure the current flowing into the pipe to the house electrical ground, the currents or resistance could be used to get you close to the leak, then zero in using the other methods.
How familiar are you with wire pulling techniques?

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The water supplier said it is my problem. They do not help. It is my problem form the meter on.

Our supplier said it's our responsibility from the street shutoff on. So, we had a leak just before the meter at the shutoff. Our problem. With a deposit, we could borrow a tool to shut off the water at the street. The harder problem is finding the shutoff.
It's buried in grass.

The only significant leak we had was under the basement slab while we were on vacation. Hot and cold water runs under the basement floor for about 20'. Running it overhead wasn't easy. It had to go over a stairwell and through perpendicular beams.

Fortunately, the water heater was turned to pilot. No sign of water.

 

[ericgibbs]

hi Ron,
Do have access to both ends of the underground pipe.
If so you could use a 'sound correlation' method for locating the position of the leak.

I designed some years ago a leak correlation unit based on a Z80.
The user placed a sound detecting transducer on a convenient water hydrant and connected it directly to the unit.
At the remote end, which could be upto 500 mtrs away, a second sound detector was connected to a water hydrant, the signal was amplified and transmitted as an analog signal back to the other unit.
The signals from a leak are random in frequency, the method used to detect a leak is to delay one of the signals and compare a block of signals at each delay step.
When a very close match is obtained the delay is noted.
Knowing the length of the pipe between the two sound transducers, the velocity of sound thru water and delay time, it was possible to fix the leak position within +/- 1mtr.

E

 

[ronsimpson]

2 lines will = 2500ft. So the total distance is around 1.250ft correct?

Yes 1250 feet +/- a little. I think this project is about the price of a good used car.

If so you could use a 'sound correlation' method for locating the position of the leak..........
Knowing the length of the pipe between the two sound transducers, the velocity of sound thru water and delay time, it was possible to fix the leak position within +/- 1mtr.

Interesting idea. If I could know with in +/- 3 meters I would start a trench 2 feet deep and see where the wet spot is.
BUT
That leads on to the next idea. For not much $$ I could rent a little trencher that only goes 1.5 feet down, and 2 inches wide. Trench from one end to the other. Some where I think there will be a muddy mess. Oh wait, it has been raining all day and trying to snow. It is a muddy mess from one end to the other. Well it will dry out next week.

PVC pipe, what size, can the ends be isolated, ................... GRANTED, THIS COULD BE DANGEROUS. ........................... apply 120 vac each end and measure the current flowing into the pipe
How familiar are you with wire pulling techniques?

Pipe size 1.25 inch.
Isolating the pipe is hard. On the street end there is a brass valve that won't stop electrons. On the house end I could just cut the pipe under the house.
I could swear we have worked on the same project. "Hay lets apply 120 VAC and see what happens." Salting the water and applying real power might cause the water to boil at the break. That I could hear real easy.
I have pulled much wire.

........................Most likely it will damage the new flex..................

I have not talked to the county (government) lately. Last time flex was new and they did not want me using it. Now every one uses flex. The county is so worried that rocks will damage the pipe they want me to have sand around the pipe. My dirt is slick clay with no rocks. The water table is high so it would be a easy pull this time of year. By spring when my water table is low it would be a very hard pull. The main reason I won't be pulling a new pipe using the old pipe as a reference, is that the old pipe will be shredded and will leave sharp pieces of PVC next to the new pipe. This sounds like a recipe for trouble next year.

Thank you all, It is good to have friends with ideas.
It is dark/ cold/ wet and I am inside dry and not working on it until the storm blows over and thing dry out.

 

[kinarfi]

Yes, I think we have worked on projects together before, 555 used as a SMPS booster, and I think you sent me some strain gauges, or maybe it was the other Ron or Both.
When I was young, my brother led me to believe that water was very conductive, almost as much as wire, I have since come the think of water as nearly as conductive as air.
My thinking was use an isolation xfrmr, machine tool transformer, 480/240 to 120, rectified, filtered, one lead to GND, and one to WATER at each end and I bet your only going to get milli or micro amp current. Unfortunately, it sounds like you would have to dig a hole at the street end and cut the pipe get it isolated, then add another coupling when you reconnect. However and therefor, no grounding, the leak could possibly trigger a tick tracer, doubt it, but maybe have a detectable voltage. To get the reading, take a 500' spool of hook up wire, tie it to a ground rod and go stick it in the ground, power up and measure the voltage, as in attached .asc, move rod, measure, yada yada.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Use a farmer's method: https://www.farmshow.com/view_articles.php?a_id=467

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

More fun stuff with real data: https://nepis.epa.gov/Adobe/PDF/P100EK7Q.pdf

 

[Reloadron]

I think you sent me some strain gauges, or maybe it was the other Ron or Both.

LOL, I sent you soma a few years ago with some samples of how to mount them. Too many Rons around here. Think it was for an automotive (truck) project?

As to this water pipe it is such a long run it should prove interesting. I had a gas line sleeved a few years ago which worked out well and was covered. Maybe just a matter of trying several methods till finding one that works well.

Ron

 

[ronsimpson]

Keepitsimple, I do not have a doctor's stethoscope. Did see the Farm Show. I have real problems with wind on the mic. A length of pipe makes a good wind shield. Now that my amplifier is working better I will try it again.

Wow a 184 page .PDF. I did see the yellow ball that they inserted in side the pipe, with radio transmitter. What a project. It must have taken all summer and 10 workers. I was hopping that my project will be smaller than that. lol
Wish I could get at the hot end of the pipe. I could insert a 1" ball. It would travel down the pipe fast then stop inches beyond the break.

 

[cowboybob]

... My water table is about 3 to 4 feet down ...

All things considered, have you looked into a shallow well?

Our water table is also at that depth (varies a few feet depending on rain levels over the year). Had a 21' (to top of well head) well drilled in 1981, 1.25" PVC pipe feed with a 1HP pump. Soil is composed of layers of sand, then shell, then clay, irregularly repeated at intervals.

You might need a heftier pump to supply two homes.

It has provided excellent water since.

Get off the city water (and their BS regs) permanently.

 

[ronsimpson]

I have a 13 acre island between two major irrigation ditches. During the farming season the water table is high. During the winter its not.
Don't tell, but I do have a shallow well for the garden etc. The water is a little thick and there are some nitrates.
Here the government does not allow wells if there is any way to get at "city" water. I have to have greater than 35 acres to have a well and then only for inside the house use.
It is very dry here. We get about 7" of rain a year.
The government makes it clear they own all the water.
>I cannot use water from the roof to water plants.
>Can not reuse water in any way. Some of us use bath water on the yard. Not allowed.
>Can not get well permits. They have shutdown many old wells.
There is just not enough H2O to go around. We need to insure the water goes down stream to the next town.

 

[jbelectric777]

ron - you are allowed by IPC to recycle and use non potable water under certain conditions. (Plumbing Code) and its national so they cant say you cant do it. your looking for a detector to find fresh water??????? try a water witch??????? other than that they don't make anything like that that I know of except a drill bit and casing? These fellas in the forum would know if they do or not, I just never heard of it, Im an electrician that switched to semi conducting parts/materials but good luck. Jim