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PWM & high current

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by electrookie, Aug 28, 2009.

  1. electrookie

    electrookie New Member

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    Newbie here. I am building a HHO system, fracturing water into the gaseous components and am using a constant current PWM to control the electrolysis cell. The circuit works fine at low currents, but I am shooting for 80 to 100 amps. I have doubled the mosfets and that part seems ok. The problem I have is the capacitor on the output & to the +12v terminal is overheating, melting wires, blowing the cap up. There is a diode across the terminals as well that is getting very hot too. Without getting into the design to heavy, can anyone answer me why there is so much heat build up in this part of the circuit. I will be happy to provide full schematics if need be. I don't want to write a long story here and waste anyone's time. Just wondering if any gurus out there may have a quick answer for such a problem.

    Here are a couple ideas I am playing with. For the cap, can 2 caps be used in parallel? This would make it a 20,000uf cap right? And in general, with a diode, if I put 2 of those in parallel too, would this help? I'm willing to try anything suggested as I am a rookie when it comes to electronics.

    This is a relatively new movement in alternative fuels, even though HHO has been known for over 100 years. The HHO gas is used to ad to the fossil fuel, doubling mpgs, if not even more. Good thing to explore, but I need to figure out why the cap gets so hot. Its a 10,000uf 63 volt, and only used on 12 volt car systems, so the larger voltage rating hasn't helped. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

    Thank you
     
  2. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    We need a schematic to understand what you have built.

    And for what its worth being a deliberate HHO research concept this thread will likely get locked or deleted soon any way.

    Sorry but thats how open minded the powers that be are here. Spam, swearing, direct name calling, and HHO get threads deleted. :(
     
  3. electrookie

    electrookie New Member

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    Can do for the schematic. I'll get back here with it soon. But real quick, are you telling me deliberate HHO research is banned for some reason? HHO is Hydrogen Hydrogen Oxygen, are you saying HHO is somehow in the same class as Spam, swearing, direct name calling?

    Color this rookie confused?!?!?!?!
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The so called para science electronics get very frowned upon here.
    It may not get this thread locked or deleted but expect a good deal of pokes and rough treatment because of it. Especially if you cant give accurate reasons as to how or why something is done in a particular way.:D
    We all enthusiastically want to learn about new things but we cant just blindly believe without confirmable proof.

    I personally do agree with people trying to develop alternative fuels and fuel saving devices however every one that has shown up here that has claimed to have a working device or system has yet to put up the real facts, figures, and honest provable and scientifically confirmable data plus related information to how they are supposedly doing it.

    You may very well be one has a system than can stand up to scientific scrutiny but so far HHO and like devices have been the scam artists and liars paradise.
    The problem is those who claim to be able to do it and want to change the world for the better from it also want big money and never seem to be able to actually prove their devices work when put into real world testing conditions. :mad:

    Give us real working data and we will happily work with you! ;) Give us specifications that need secret chemicals or trade secret circuitry or mystery devices and we get rough real fast. :eek:
     
  6. electrookie

    electrookie New Member

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    HHO Hoax or fact?

    I understand what your saying about scammers and such. I have spent too much money on them over the past 2 years or so. I'm very careful where I spend money now.

    It is a proven technology in the fact that the D.O.D. uses such technology in the Navy, on subs, and the Army is investigating it for use as well as NASA and other such agencies. Pseudo Science? To some, and many who think it will never amount to anything. If the nay Sayer's will take a close look at the products now offered in the market that use this technology to assist the fuel burn, you will be surprised.

    Yes, some people are claiming unity and even over unity. And every time I have pressed any of them to give us the details, we quickly find they do not really have a clue what they are talking about, or they claim to have "secret" technology. Of course the red flags go up. I'm not from Missouri, but you'll have to prove your claims before I will spend a penny on it.

    I believe over unity will one day be archived, but that's another brains quest, not mine. I simply want to put this on my cars and improve my mpg's. That's it. No mystery, nothing secret about it at all.

    The schematic is freely given to the world by a guy who calls himself Zero Fossil Fuels. His site is Alternative Energy research by Zero Fossil Fuel - Hydrogen, Solar, Wind. His constant current PWM is a device that works fine at low currents. I have asked him about jumping to the 100 amp range and told him the problems I have. No answer.........still no answer..........yet again, no answer. So this is why I am asking here.

    I can not find any help in these forums as to how to post a .bmp or .jpg or whatever. The schematic at ZFF's site is exactly what I have been working with except I put 2 130 amp mosfets in parallel. So there it can be found. No secret's, nothing hidden. Just guys trying to get something working right. ZFF is apparently a busy fellow so I can't slight him because his circuit DID fix a lot of problems to date.

    thank you again
     
  7. Mr RB

    Mr RB Well-Known Member

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    Well the quick answer is that you are exceeding the ripple current spec for the output cap. Generally you can fix this by adding enough caps in parallel and/or using larger caps that generally have a higher ripple current spec. A general rule of thumb is to use 1000uF for each amp, just as a starter point.

    If you are doing legitimate electrloysis research that I'm sure at least some people here (like me) are interested in what you are doing and will try to help. Just keep your posts to your actual measured facts and your personal hydrogen setup, as making wild claims or posting links to HHO website which make wild claims will annoy people. As an example saying "doubling mpgs" is one of the things that will start people arguing (based on previous threads) and mpg talk should probably be avoided. :)

    Back to the electronics side, what frequency are you running your PWM at and can you post the schematic or any more details?
     
  8. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I took a look at it and the ripple currents are to high for the capacitors is why they heat up. Most likely the circuit has to small of wire and poor connector choices. Big heavy wire with good solid copper lugs should used. Preferably 4 gauge for the power handling lines. How ever that will likely burn out the switching devices since the present current limiting PWM circuit may be fairly slow at responding. You many need to go to much higher current capacity switching devices.
    Using multiple smaller capacitors with the same combined value as one big capacitor will help handle the high ripple current as well.

    The whole circuit could easily be replaced with a standard LM3525 or similar IC and likely give you a much better and simpler control system too.

    Negative RF spectrum?
    Reference to known and proven crackpot Myers?
    Sounds like a scam site to me still. :mad:
    Want some unobtainium bolts to hold everything together?:p

    Its things like this that are why people like me are skeptical of the HHO stuff. Yes the government does use electrolysis of water to get oxygen in subs and other under water vessels and so does NASA for rocket fuel and countless other commercial and industrial applications as well. They however do it with real proven systems.

    My question is if these agencies with countless billions of dollars already spent over the last 100 years didn't find that PWM or any other real electrical manipulation of the system produced a real provable and justifiable increase in gaseous output Vs electrical energy input why do so many countless others with little to no knowledge of electrical and chemical sciences believe they can?

    Just asking.:)
     
  9. electrookie

    electrookie New Member

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    Thanks for the help & advice....

    Thank you both, tcmtech & Mr RB, for your replies. I was guessing that the cap values were too low, but wasn’t quite sure. You both removed any doubts and I appreciate it much.

    I will take a close look at the LM3525 as you recommend tcmtech, thanks for the advice on that as well.

    I do not wish to start any controversy because of HHO, so I will adhere to your advice as given and keep it strictly to the facts and documented results. I am all too aware of the thieves taking advantage of people out there and can cite one major case that was shut down by the feds at beginning of this year, an outfit called Dutchman Enterprises. Although I do not think they were shut down because of the technology, only the dealership practices they were doing were very unethical. And if one is to search eBay for HHO, they will find plenty of bogus HHO equipment there that make outrageous claims. I know these people have no clue what they are claiming for the most part, but they sell their junk anyway. Buyer beware as the saying goes.

    The government has been using HHO for some time, and trying to get a hold of anything that the government has on HHO has been fruitless to date. I held top secret clearances when I was in the Navy and then Civil Service for the Air Force. Trying to use that as a “way” to get into the information I seek has been to no avail. Such clearances are 1) very old now & 2) the primary information is always on a “need to know”, which apparently I don’t need to know… I would love to have the results of those billions of $ spent on HHO research, and by all rights, any American should have access to such info, we pay for it. But my theory is simply that it is good enough for the D.O.D. to use, but not for the general public due to the fact that the single largest τλχ our government, at all levels, enjoys from us is the τλχ from gasoline & oil sales. HHO is a major threat to that income. And till they figure out how to τλχ us for water, they don’t want this technology out there.

    Then again, I may just be a conspiracy theorist, but I do know who shot JFK!!! It was Onasis who contracted with a hit man from the “mob”, CIA involvement not likely. In hind sight, Jackie was married to Onasis fairly quick don’t you think? There are few reasons for murder, thin out the choices, apply the facts after the event, what is left? Just my theory though, no facts to back it up other than history. They say hind sight is 20/20, I say it is x-ray vision if you look closely.

    Thank you guys again for your input, I value it much, and appreciate it just as much. And again, your advice on HHO in this forum is taken to heart & I will be very careful what I say.

    Have great days…
     
  10. bryan1

    bryan1 Well-Known Member

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    OK guys the OP does seem to have a valid claim to ask about HHO here. So please keep the skeptic quotes and over unity scam quotes out of this thread. If further posts just try and throw this thread into disarray it will leave me with no choice to delete it, but I would prefer to see the OP's questions answered and lets help where we can.

    Regards Bryan
     
  11. mneary

    mneary New Member

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    Since the OP has told us he knows that the Government has solved the HHO problem and the D.O.D. is already using it, all we have to do is find out where the information is being kept.
     
  12. electrookie

    electrookie New Member

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    Update on the matter

    Hello bryan1 (moderator). I understand the apprehension. I would like to rebuttal golemmasters post if I may.

    I know its not new, I said that originally!?!?!

    Fossil fuel burns at an average of 4000 ft per sec. HHO burns around 40,000 ft per sec. 10 times faster. When mixed with fossil fuel, the burn is much faster and the fossil fuel is better consumed, giving better performance, cooler engine, way less emissions. The engine needs to be retarded towards TDC, which of course will improve performance as less resistance is being applied.

    As for fighting the ECU (OBD II today's cars), not an issue. I have made a variety of sensor enhancers that offset the sensors to recognize the faster burn. But that is now a thing of the past as overlay eprom's are now available from very reliable and long time manufacturer of performance "chips" for computerized cars. If you do not enhance the ECU, the result IS drastic reduction in performance as the ECU goes into closed loop & DUMP gasoline into the intake way more than needed.

    These are not hope's or dreams or believing in some hocus pocus, it is being done every day and I have converted many myself. I would not waste my time on spooky technology. As for claims of unity, I said before, I'm not from Missouri, but show me anyway. And I am not chasing unity, I am simply improving my performance on all levels. There is no extra cost for fuel, just water and electrolyte in the HHO system and after that, free better performance as far as I see. That's all I want & I get it already.

    This is in fact is working. If you doubt the technology, simply search the net for it. Plenty going on. My problem has been getting this PWM to work with higher currents without smoking. And if this thread never goes any further, I did learn from a couple gentlemen as to where the problem lies. And I will thank them again here for their help. I only mentioned HHO in the 1st place because I figured the guru's needed to know what I was working with. They did! And they replied. Made my day gentlemen.
     
  13. electrookie

    electrookie New Member

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    Reply to mneary...

    Sir, if you can get to that government research information, please pass it on. I have tried to find it, poked around a bit. Not got anywhere easy so did not pursue it to hard. There are a lot of people who would benefit from such research. Heck, you could write a small book just about what you find and get rich off of that .... :-}
     
  14. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Now we are getting some place! An honest open not in your face alternative fuels guy!

    Thanks for the PM question about the LM3525 Heres the specs sheet. I am not sure what you may have found but sometimes the IC database websites have several different IC's all with the same part number but totally different applications.
    So heres the real LM3525 PWM Regulator IC data sheet with application circuit schematics included.:)

    At first when people come around wanting to do HHO related stuff its typically high school or low level college kids or hippies/tree huggers/enviro nutters with no real education or unrealistic/idealistic goals for the world. :(

    So far your not appearing to be any one of them.
    Because of that this thread may actually bear so fruit! :)

    I will help in any way I can. ;)
     

    Attached Files:

  15. be80be

    be80be Well-Known Member

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    I don't get how it can be free.

    But any way they make big diode and even make heat sink for them.

    It hard to tell with out looking at your circuit how to fix it

    Maybe this will help. Its easy to add sch, JPEG, image png, and such just use the go advanced button
    and you can add all kind of goodies.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  16. electrookie

    electrookie New Member

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    wouldn't ya know...

    Thanks again tcmtech. I just Googled LM3525 and got a USB driver or interface IC. Go figure. I wasn't aware the same # might be used for a different device.

    Not a tree huger nor any other such. Just a conservative old dad trying to stretch his $. I was asked about results, which I was thinking I needed to avoid, but I will answer the ?. We have a 04 Toyota Corolla with a very small cell that is producing 1/2 liter per minute HHO. This is ducted into the throttle body. The result is a consistent 45 to 48 mpg when its on. Normally it gets about 25 average. So we are pulling almost double mpgs. Putting a much larger cell on a GMC Jimmy, '96, which is averaging 16 to 18 without, and based on a similar install, we expect to 35 to 40 range.

    And these numbers are not typical, they are lower than I hear others actually claim. I won't exaggerate the results, no need to, they impress me and my wallet just fine...:D

    Can more be achieved? I am sure it can. I've been involved with this for about 2 years now, so I have read tons of stuff on the subject. I know there is a point of diminishing returns, but I haven't found it yet. I know to run a car on just HHO will take some engine modifications to prevent rust as when the HHO burns, it exhaust pure water, which can be recycled back into the HHO water tank. There are demonstration small engines shown on YouTube that have the exhaust totally closed off - NO emissions. A totally HHO engine and who knows how long that tank of water will last.

    A Japanese company just released a proto type water powered car. Just Goggle it, I am sure you can find it. Peterbuilt trucks now offer a HHO package as an option on their new trucks (I was just told this by a fairly reliable source but I have not verified it yet). I know Volvo & Astin Martin are both doing research into HHO as an option or even standard equipment. And I am sure other manufacturers are working on it as well. We all want better mpg's. If one car maker comes out with this, they will all have to come up with something to compete with the performance. And the performance is more than just the mpg's, the engine runs "healthier" - "stronger" - just all around better, so much so that you can feel it when you turn it on.

    The genie is out of the bottle. This is fast becoming main stream and is in fact a real technology. Its funny to listen to the nay sayers because they speak without investigating anything. When they do, suddenly they become an authority on the subject...:) Before you call it a scam, check it out. You will be amazed. And of course, as with anything else, the snake oil salesman is in there somewhere too. I got sucked into some of that junk early on, bit no more.

    And finally: Free? What is so hard to get about this. The system is not free unless you have a sugar daddy, but once the system is built and installed, engine dialed in, from there on, the water is FREE! And HHO only engines are out there. Those scare the government because they have yet to figure out how to tax water. I'm sure some liberal will come up with something sooner or later, they always do don't they? (now watch me git kicked for saying "liberal":eek::eek::eek:)

    Thanks once again tcmtech. I just took a quick look at the LM3525, the correct one, and can already see I am in for a long night. I had no idea such an animal existed. Time to play with it. I'll let you know where I get and see if I can get it at least close to right.
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009
  17. electrookie

    electrookie New Member

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    Running car on water IS a scam...

    Running car on water IS a scam... but not running a car on HHO. Consider the HH & the O. The HH is a volatile gas is it not (Hint - Hindenburg). And as for the O, oxygen is the best accelerate, is it not? And the SCIENCE that is in the physics books, shows us the ideal mixture of the H & O is in fact 2:1 (2 H's to 1 O). If you are a God fearing person and read the good book, check out Job 38:22-23. From His mouth to our ears, it is in the grand plan!!! And considering the times we live in, this alone should be all the proof one needs. But many say they are, yet they really are not! (Hmmm, I wonder if THAT will get me kicked off???)

    And when the day comes that HHO IS main stream, you may want to change your user name, you will be embarrassed for crying wolf so loud.
     
  18. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    As I was doing the haying today I thought about a few explanations as to how The adding HHO to an engines intake air may possibly give actual real mileage and power increases.

    Its a known fact that by changing an emission compliant engines A/F ratio from the stoichiometric approximate of 14.4:1 to a approximate 12.6:1 there is a real honest increase in power and fuel efficiency and also due to the added fuel the ignition timing can be slightly advanced aiding in further power and fuel economy. Ask any old timer who worked on carbonated engines years ago. they will confirm this or any off road racer can as well.

    Another possible reason is the added oxygen increases the burn rate of gasoline vapor. This is also a confirmable method of boosting the apparent power of a gasoline by oxidizing it faster and will also reduce fuel consumption simply by getting the fuel to give off its energy faster.

    Hydrogen boosting gasoline vapor has been shown to also change the burn characteristics of gasoline slightly and can aid in increasing the octane equivalent of the fuel and will allow more advanced ignition timing also which does improve the burn efficiency and relative power output per unit of gasoline used.

    Back in the old days it was also common with larger farm machinery engines to purposely add watter to the gasoline in a specifically metered amount to gain power and get heavily worked engines to run cooler at the same time. Most of the old two cylinder John Deere tractors had this as a factory instaled system years ago. Its also well known by off road racers and and is sometimes used on high performance diesel engine applications as well.

    So does adding water gas really make it possible to increase fuel mileage? Its very plausible and I will not give it a flat out no being I regularly do some things that seem to defy common logic and supposed expert explanation.
    I wont say yes until I have fully done it myself though! Just a solid maybe.
    And it has brought out enough curiosity on my part to likely justify personal experimentation some day being I do have the materials and components to actually be able to do an honest scientific study of its effects. ;)

    After All I do have a diesel that runs on 100% used oil and numerous large three phase motor driven devices that run strait off of single phase at there full running power and efficiency with only a few added passive components. So why not try and add a water powered engine to the collection as well. :D
     
  19. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Saw it many times. But still I only take my own research as the truth. There are too many people out there claiming it does work to some degree and that draws my attention. ;)

    I have never been one to take other persons views of impossible as serious. I am skeptical but I can not dismiss something until I have proven it to myself that its all foolishness and junk.

    And as I stated I will do the experiments in as scientific of fashion as possible if I choose to do them at all. I have the materials, the equipment to fashion the components, the knowledge of electrical and electronics devices, and the knowledge and hands on experience with internal combustion engines to be able to account for what does or does not happen.
    If I do it and nothing happens I will state that nothing happened. But if something does... :eek: I am going to find out what caused it and why it so happens despite the present scientific opinions that it shouldn't work at all. And then I too will customize my design to fit my vehicles and give the dirty finger to the fuel companies a bit more than I do right now! :D

    Sorry to disappoint but sometimes I just have to see what all the fuss is about my self for good or bad! And I do love a good scientifically implausible challenge now and then. ;):)

    Besides, once the universe rotated around the earth, the world was flat, machines couldn't fly, and the sound barrier couldn't be broken by anything large enough a human could fit into! And absolutely everybody knew all of that was scientifically true and unquestionable facts! :D
     
  20. Mr RB

    Mr RB Well-Known Member

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    This thread could have gone somewhere good. I personally would have liked to see pictures of his electrolysis setup, schematics of his control unit etc and maybe people could have commented on making it better, more efficient plate clearing, electrolyte circulation, higher efficiency electronics, electroliser heat recycling etc. Hydrogen IS a legitimate energy storage medium and there is a lack of legit hydrogen research going on by people who actually have the skills.

    But the thread immediately headed out into left field talking about JFK and Meyers and government conspiracies etc etc. And so the people who have the skills will walk away accomplishing nothing and claiming "hydrogen is a scam" and the people who don't have the skills will keep trying to make the world a better place but hindered by burning their fingers on their smoking output caps.

    Sigh.
     
  21. mneary

    mneary New Member

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    I get the sense that the conspiracies are the OP's primary interest anyway. :confused:

    Hydrogen is a legitimate way to store and transport energy, and it's true that we could be doing more research on it. However, using Hydrogen or "HHO" in the field as a way of fooling an emission control system without regard to pollution impact is questionable at best. :(

    I would buy into the Government Conspiracy that they are manipulating the cars we drive, to their own goals. :rolleyes:
    I have observed major improvements in air quality in just the past 30 years. I don't want to give any of that back. :mad:
     

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