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project small generator 3

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by sciencetoolbar, Apr 4, 2017.

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  1. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I agree. I have no issue with anyone wanting to build something themselves just to get familiar with how the concept of the design works or just for the fun of it. I do it near daily.

    What I have trouble with is when someone claims they want to refine some concept yet gives every indication they have near zero practical knowledge of any part of what it is they are working with or to what their actual start and end points are either.
    Then as the OP used, some archaic and largely irrelevant historical reference (most often to what is now a well understood and common knowledge in the related field) as if it's suposed to justify whatever it is they are doing to imply their work is going to be some world revolutionizing concept as was done here.

    The two things I see here is either the OP wants to run a common line voltage powered LED light off of a common ~3.6 volt lithium based battery set, easily and efficiently done with a tiny SMPS based converter circuit, or he want to make a high RPM generator that can power said LED light which if so can be done cheaply and easily with most any rewound DC brush type motor or line voltage rated one.
     
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  2. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Now I have played with this today. Watching the video bothered me, I mentioned before about the motor noise. Having played alot with coils etc for fun I didnt expect such a obvious drag down on the motor. So before I tell you what I think is going on, I will tell you what I concluded from the stuff I did ages ago...........

    Round magnets dont work as well as square ones! Not tried spheres until today, but generally square is better than round, if you put a magnet under paper and sprinkle iron dust on, you can see the magnetic pattern. Square magnets always have a better and stronger pattern, so this flagged something for me. Also these thing work best when the magnet just covers all the coil, so normally you make sure its full length across the coil, this is common in wind turbine generators as well.

    I am not sure if your using a straight coil, or the ballast bit from an energy saving bulb. The voltage for the shape and size of magnet is way too high for a normal coil, so again a red flag.

    But you mentioned the angel and it got me thinking........ So I tried a few things today and got near once or twice to your results...

    So Jim Et al watch the video again, and see if you think the following is possible.

    I dont think the little magnet is doing much, I think the motor is the main source! Infact I think you managed to couple the motor field to the coil, in the same way that cordless charging is down.

    I used a small motor and got a similar result, but it took alot of playing with. As soon as the motor was close enough and near enough I got the sudden drop in motor speed, I also got leds to light. So I took the magnet off and kept the shaft on, I got the same result! So I dont think its so much the magnet doing much, but you are managing to inductive couple the motor to the coil! I also tried using a drill instead of a motor, it had a magnet on a longer shaft. I got very very little voltage as I would expect, there was also no way the motor could couple with the coil.

    Anyway thats as far as I got, I would be pretty sure you are inductively coupling the motor and coil. It would explain alot of what your seeing. No way will that magnet give the results you get, and no way would it slow the motor like that.

    The bad news though, it pulls alot of energy from the battery.
     
  3. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    when you have time please repeat the experiment, but folow the description and related materials like in the description of the movie "small generator 2" .....it is important to use a neodymyum sphere - to create "gyroscopic effect" and put it in the same position like I did in the movies. It must stay still ( in the initial position) at 7200rpm or more (that is the reason I used a small metal screw in the movies - it will "stik" at the N pole or in the S pole of rhe sphere- to show how to fix the sphere on the metal holder ) use also related coils without iron (to avoid the " magnetic brake") and use the same position coil - sphere like I did in the the movies. regarding the consumption I will make a short movie - with a 1.2 v baterry and I will use a minidrone dc motor 3.7 v .....
    thx for the suport
    science toolbar
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    You are missing my point, you are magnetically coupling with the motor! The two fields are interacting, Measure the current from the battery with the generator not in the right position. Then keep watching the meter as you bring the generator into the right posistion. The Amps will shoot up as you draw more from the power source.

    Ideally you will have two meters, one on the generator side between the generator and light, and one as described above. Note the numbers and report back ;).

    Works with any magnet you just get different numbers but same relationship. The square neo magnet is best but draws most from power source, and is harder to position, Sphere is easier to position and draws less.

    Equally the generator provides more with the square one and less with the sphere. Take away the motor and the voltage plummets to nearly nothing. Nothing to do with gyro effect (sory), but call it that if you want.

    Also you should get a similar effect with just the motor being brought close to the coil at the same angel, again different numbers but same thing. Look up inductive coupling, that is pretty much what you have done. I admit its a different way of doing it! But its 100% not what you think it is, I promise you that. I have played with this over the last few days, I am 100% happy that without the motor involved and near to the coil it dosnt work.

    Lets say your correct I am wrong, then its easy to prove as I did. Just use a longer shaft for the magnet so the motor is well away from the coil. If it is gyro effect then surely the generator shouldnt care what is spinning the magnet ;), but it does care, it cares alot.
     
  6. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    what are the values you obtained on the coil output wires ?
     
  7. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    PS I.m just trying to make the mentioned device more efficient and I insist to keep the sphere and the initial dimensions - educational purpose only - the comparation with other types of generators (efficency, etc ) is n.a. if i.m correct or wrong n.a
    thx for the suport st
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2017
  8. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I understand this, but part of education is learning is it not? Dont shoot the messenger! All I was telling you is the generator is working by inductive coupling, take away the motor the spins the magnet and it dosnt work. By this I dont mean dont spin the magnet, I mean move the motor away from the coil and still spin the magnet, you will notice a massive drop in power.

    So is it a generator as such or a inductive coupled device? Part of science is looking for answers, sometimes we dont like the answer but there you go. My values are not that applicable to you as I didnt use your motor I used mine.

    But I got 173V with a square magnet, the main difference being my motor was 12V 5A ;), I got 1.5A at the generator But when the generator worked the motor started pulling ~9A.

    I didnt write down all the figures as I didnt see the point, I answered the question I was looking for (why the change in motor pitch). But I can run the tests again in the week and not the results. Seriously though dont take offence, keep an open mind as I did and do some tests. A word of advice GYRO EFFECT is not a good phrase, it is just a phrase. I am all for experimenting but seriously take some measurements, not just voltage but current drawn and produced. That will tell you alot, it isnt educational unless you explore the WHY.
     
  9. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    a single batery 1.2 V , a mini drone 3,7 V DC motor, and a small sphere



    thx for your suport Little Ghostman
     
  10. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Ok now make the shaft alot longer (>18") and try again. Also do you have any multi meters? You need 2. I used a dremel drill with the flexi arm thing, as soon as the motor was well away from the coil the power dropped right off.

    I dont mind helping out but your going to have to do proper investigations, yes its fun, but without measuring you are not proving or providing any real info. How many turns are on the coil? What gauge wire did you use? I cant replicate exactly without the info.

    Leave it running with a new battery and time how long the battery lasts, all this matters if you want it taken seriously. Have you tried different motors? You might be surprised at the results ;).

    The latest video seems to back up what I was saying, look at the position of the motor in relation to the coil. If the magnet was the main source it wouldnt be so far to one side. Some really useful info is contained in home made wind turbine motors, alot of information in making the most effective generators. But what you really need is measurements of how many amps are being used from the power source and how many are being used from the light. At a gues I think your likely to drawing around 1.5 -3 times the power the power source as your generating.

    But as I said, ironically if you are inductive coupling then the figures will be really interesting. While I am positive this is a inefficient generator, it might just be a reasonable way to inductive couple. But that would be a whole other experiment, I dont remember what efficiency I got when I tried close coupling. Mine wasnt great but didnt use a motor, my reason was to build a acrylic block with micro and leds in, it was supposed to be powered wirelessly. It was a flop, but it was a good while back and before wireless chargers were cheap.

    One day I might try again as they sell well on ebay with lights etc ;), so might do great with a wireless powered version. But honestly please measure stuff, not many are going to jump in unless you do things the engineers way........ Plus you will learn alot more, how you going to know what improvements if any you have made? Unless you measure you wont know. I think the battery is working better because it can deliver more A than your other source, but even though its a good make, I doubt it will run for that long.

    Let me know the wire gauge in the coil and length, I need to order more wire anyway. Which reminds me...................How come copper winding wire is suddenly so expensive?? I miss Devon for the cheap parts shops and bankrupt auctions :(, up here everything except rain cost alot :D
     
  11. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    sphere magnet is the main source 100%. I measured it from the begining of the post, I know the values, but I prefer someone else to reproduce it and measure it, to have the first - second opinion. it is simple and easy to create.
    3V Dc motor + plastic stalk ( inside “2 function toy” cars both parts; plastic stalk is used to fix the case of the toy car)
    7w AC led light bulb+ E 27 socket lead+ wires -
    3,7 v - 600 mah Li-Po battery ( mini drones) -
    Neodymium magnet sphere diameter 12.7 mm + neodymium magnet screw thread ( just the metallic case needed – without the inside magnet)
    Copper coil - just the coil no need the case (inside microwave oven turntable motor) -
    Construction kit (toys) plastic and metal–used for the coil and the 3v dc motor holder
     
  12. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    All you have given is a voltage being generated..............We need to know how many Amps you drawing from the power source and how many Amps your generating. Otherwise it is kind of pointless.

    What makes you 100% sure its the magnet and not the motor? What have you done to support this theory?

    Let me ask you this.
    Would you agree that if its solely down to the magnet turning, then the method of turning should not matter? As long as the speed etc is exactly the same, what actually turns the magnet should make no difference should it?
     
  13. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I have reproduced your experiment, this is why I am asking you to measure your current draw. You seem to be under the impression that because its a hi voltage nothing else matters, but voltage is kind of les important than how much power your using as opposed to generating. As an example I will see if I can find the video I mentioned.
     
  14. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Its not the one I was looking for but its close. 5-10KV from water dripping through a plastic tube, no outside power at all. Knocks the 100+V your getting out the park. BUT this is why you need to measure Amps ;), because Kelvins dosnt produce much power. It produces enough Volts to make a spark jump a gap, but it dosnt produce useful power.

    This is why you need more than a voltage measurement ;).
     
  15. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    What your doing is a variation on this

    Instead of transistors your using the oscillating field from the motor, the metal ball is acting just like the thing he drops in the middle. Like I say its set up differently to yours, but the principles are exactly the same.

    This is slightly better, though the same guy. He is using a round neo magnet like you, watch what happens when the ball goes still and the coil reaches self oscillation. Yours is exactly the same except your moving the magnet by motor, this is providing the oscillations.

    So again I am 100% positive you have a magnetically coupled coil. Where he uses a circuit to provide the switching of fields, your motor is doing it instead.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2017
  16. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    when you have time please use 1.2 V batery and a minidrone motor 3,7 V, a turntable DC motor coil, neodymium sphere and measure the values it is better like that. (all values).
    thx for all the help
     
  17. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I been asking for your values! How can I measure mine against yours unless I know them?? Why are you so reluctant to give the numbers? If your not sure how to take them then just ask, no one is going to mind explaining how.

    Equally no one is going to be surprised by them, but my experiments will be pointless unless I know what I am looking for. Our figures will not match, there will be a variation in them. Not all leds are the same, not all coils will be the same. Magnets age and loose magnetism, so my magnet might have more or maybe less power than yours. We are aware the generator will be running at a fair amount of net loss, but what would be interesting is to see how much of a loss it runs at.

    Strictly speaking it isnt a generator as it consumes more than it make. Yes I know the voltage is alot higher, but a £2 boost converter can take 1.5V and turn it into a much higher voltage.
    Run it again and measure the Amps, then I can compare it with a square magnet. Honestly I cant help with anything when you give me less than half the info. Its like telling me your car does 80 MPG, without telling me what the engine size is or what fuel your using and what size the car is! Then asking me to measure my MPG!
     
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  18. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    That's how the OU/Free Energy crowd works. It's not their job to prove their idea and concept works. Its yours to prove for them.

    BTW, Over on AAC his thread made it all of 6 posts before mods shut him down for not providing anything of workable informational value. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Is starting to look a bit OU, still lets see if he can give some numbers. I dont mind if its just a learning thing, but if he is insistent on not taking real numbers then I cant be bothered. I am pretty sure the motor was coupled in the first video.
     
  20. sciencetoolbar

    sciencetoolbar Member

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    they just locked the discusion because someone..... linked another forum ..... everybody insist with the 100 % details we are doing this in the educational purpose we don.t want kids to modify the "musical cars" to construct the "small generator" acording to our documentation because is high voltage.... is that wright tcmtech ?
     
  21. alec_t

    alec_t Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Then please educate us by giving us the requested information to work with. Do you know how to measure current? If not, we can help with that.
     
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