Press-n-Peel PCB problem

[mramos1]

mramos1, I also have had excellent results with P-n-P on all size boards and I use an iron despite having two laminators sitting here next to me.
But I must make a few comments.

1) I use a copper cleaner, fast an easy, rinse and dry with paper towel, don't touch copper surface with fingers. No solvent needed.
2) De-burring an absolute must.
3) Max heat can be to hot and cause the toner to (cook) make pit holes. Recommended heat is 300°F , +- 25°F, some irons get hotter than that, mine does. Caused much trouble until I found right setting.
4) I use a clean piece of paper on top of the P-n-P, makes the iron glide easier. I also use a wooden cutting board with about a dozen pages of news paper on top to place my PCB & P-n-P on, this helps to retain the heat and seems to help distributing it more evenly.
If your PCB is not perfectly flat make sure that you try to follow the curvature with your iron.

This work so well that I get 99.99% good boards.

I put a paper towel over the picture paper, hold the iron in one place for 60 seconds and iron it. Under the board I have a 2x6 wrapped in a couple paper towels so it can sink down into them and hold. Basically the same things.

I did try HCL/Peroxide the other and was impressed with the speed and lack of mess. Ammonium Persulphate will be my next experiment. But it is cheap and fast with HCL.

 

[Rolf]

Can some tell me the difference between Laser and Inkjet...like no. of print out per toner or ink, maintenance, life, toner or ink prices etc..

Also suggest me Laser printer under Rs 5500 or $117.

Any help is strongly appreciated.

--------------
Regards
Gaurav Sharma

You can get a lase printer for that price but it might not be a HP.
Go to Ebay / India.

 

[AlainB]

Hi,

For toner transfer, I would say that the older the printer is, the best result you will get. If you can find an old Laserjet II or III with original HP cartridge in it you will be in luck. These printers are obsolete because the resolution is very low. They are not good for printing images but they are very good for the purpose of toner transfer.

If you look well, you will find one. Everybody is getting rid of them. I bought 9 of them at different occasions and I never paid more than 10$ each. There was one yesterday at the recycling center and the guy was asking 5$ for it. I did not take it.

When you will be fed up with it, you can vamperize it and find inside a lot of electronic goodies along with a nice big stepper motor.

Alain

 

[Rolf]

Laser Printers.....

Hi,

For toner transfert, I would say that the older the printer is, the best result you will get. If you can find an old Laserjet II or III with original HP cartridge in it you will be in luck. These printers are obsolete because the resolution is very low. They are not good for printing images but they are very good for the purpose of toner transfert.

If you look well, you will find one. Everybody is getting rid of them. I bought 9 of them at different occasions and I never paid more than 10$ each. There was one yesterday at the recycling center and the guy was asking 5$ for it. I did not take it.

When you will be fed up with it, you can vamperize it and find inside a lot of electronic goodies along with a nice big stepper motor.

Alain

The OP (Gaurav Sharma 123) is located on a different continent! And evidently they have not become a throw-away society yet.
Ebay / India listed a total of 24 laser printers! (all new)
Ebay / USA listed over 2200 used ones!
What does that tell you?

Older printers does ok with wider traces but they definitely does not do any better than a high (1200DPI) definition printer. I doubt that you can .010" and below line widths.
I can hardly recommend buying a new (or a used one) with less than 600DPI.

 

[AlainB]

Well, I never tried .010" with the toner transfer method. .010" is the thickness of 3 sheets of paper. It is extremely small! The smallest I ever went is .025" and I had good results with the Laserjet II witch is 300 DPI. Now I use a Laserjet III with enhance resolution of 500 DPI. I don't see any difference.

But I believe, and I may be wrong, that the deposit of toner on the page is thicker with an older printer.

Finding an old printer in India could be even more easy than here if it is like in some other parts of Asia. There is plenty of used computer shop and since they don't recycle them as fast has here, they are available.

Alain

 

[Rolf]

Well, I never tried .010" with the toner transfer method. .010" is the thickness of 3 sheets of paper. It is extremely small! The smallest I ever went is .025" and I had good results with the Laserjet II witch is 300 DPI. Now I use a Laserjet III with enhance resolution of 500 DPI. I don't see any difference.

But I believe, and I may be wrong, that the deposit of toner on the page is thicker with an older printer.

Finding an old printer in India could be even more easy than here if it is like in some other parts of Asia. There is plenty of used computer shop and since they don't recycle them as fast has here, they are available.

Alain

The thickness of the deposited toner has only been an issue (in the past) with some printers, I don't remember their brand names.

As for the availability of used printers; we have several members on this forum from India, why can't they educate us. The numbers on Ebay just flabbergasted me.

I agree with you, I too stick with .025" or wider traces most of the time. But P-n-P, which I also use, has no trouble with .010".

 

[gaurav_sharma132]

Any laser printer(brand new) can able to perform task of toner transfer or It is some specification required ?

Also Tell me the advantage and disadvantage of Laser printer over Inkjet printer.


----------------
Regards
Gaurav Sharma

 

[MrDEB]

laser vers inkjet

inkjet = water soluble, dissolves in water or liquid (etching solution) so it won't work)
laser printer = the printer prints onto paper with a plastic ink (best I can describe it) thus it won't dissolve in liquid.
most laser printers will print at 1200dpi (that's what is needed for good results).
using the PULSAR method I have seen two traces going between IC pins.
I myself have done .010 with good results.
If I get brave maybe try some .006.

 

[mramos1]

Any laser printer(brand new) can able to perform task of toner transfer or It is some specification required ?

Also Tell me the advantage and disadvantage of Laser printer over Inkjet printer.


----------------
Regards
Gaurav Sharma

laser printers are normally faster after the fuser heats up. No matter what, if you want to do toner transfer PCBs you need to go with the laser. Get a used 600DPI or better.

I have two and did not pay for either of them. So if you shop around you will find something. It does not have to be a new new printer.

 

[3v0]

Laser printer info

The last I heard Brother printers were not suitable for toner transfer. I think it was due to the formulation of thier toner.

Most laser printers are limited to 600 dpi going down the page. Some list an effective DPI number which is not a true DPI number.

You will not find 1200x1200 laser printers in low or lowest price range.

600x600 DPI will be good enough to do lines at least as small as .010 inch.

 

[mramos1]

I have two brother laser printer I do boards with. Maybe it's the newer models? I have a 1440, older model

I start a thread on trying out HCL/H2O2, this was done on the brother.

https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/tried-hcl-h202-and-water-for-etchant.93630/

 

[HarveyH42]

I have two brother laser printer I do boards with. Maybe it's the newer models? I have a 1440, older model

I start a thread on trying out HCL/H2O2, this was done on the brother.

https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/tried-hcl-h202-and-water-for-etchant.93630/

I'm thinking the problem is more of economy (save toner). Older lasers sold because of speed, and wasn't a huge amount of competition. The market was business/office, so price and consumables wasn't a huge concern, just fast clear prints, compared to a copy machine. Don't think toner transfer is a consideration in the manufacture of laser printers, just how it looks on paper.

 

[mneary]

Any laser printer(brand new) can able to perform task of toner transfer or It is some specification required ?

Also Tell me the advantage and disadvantage of Laser printer over Inkjet printer.


----------------
Regards
Gaurav Sharma

The advantage of laser printer for toner transfer is simple; The inkjet printer does not use toner. It uses ink. Toner is a plastic powder which is melted to the printed object and can sometimes be transferred. Ink is a dyed or pigmented liquid which dries onto or into the printed object.

The plastic in some laser printers is better than in others, and this is the discussion that you have been reading.

In English, this distinction is usually clear, but it may have been lost in the translation.

 

[3v0]

I have no personal experiance but I know the Pulsar site warns about it and DipMicro says the P&P site has a similar waring.

I have two brother laser printer I do boards with. Maybe it's the newer models? I have a 1440, older model

I start a thread on trying out HCL/H2O2, this was done on the brother.

https://www.electro-tech-online.com/threads/tried-hcl-h202-and-water-for-etchant.93630/

 

[gaurav_sharma132]

hi ,

I am looking for LASER SHOT LBP2900 monochrome printer of True 600 x 600 dpi resolution
Smoothing Technology: (2400 x 600 dpi equivalent with Automatic Image Refinement Technology)

Is it ok ?


----------
Regards
Gaurav Sharma

 

[mramos1]

I have no personal experiance but I know the Pulsar site warns about it and DipMicro says the P&P site has a similar waring.

I have used this Brother 1440 for years and not a problem at all. Maybe they have newer models do not work right.

I use picture paper, hammermill I think it is and never a problem outside of me doing something wrong. I tried (free couple sheets) of the P&P, but the waste for the money, I stayed with the picture paper.

The right magazine paper works as well. The wrong magazine paper crinkles up in the printer

 

[3v0]

I am quite sure the Brother problem is only with the newer printers. I can not speak for P&P as I do not use it.

People were making decent toner transfer PCBs long prior to the marketing of P&P or Pulsar.

I will say that the Pulsar system makes the process both faster and easier. You can also do a finer line which begs the question how good is good enough.

I have used this Brother 1440 for years and not a problem at all. Maybe they have newer models do not work right.

I use picture paper, hammermill I think it is and never a problem outside of me doing something wrong. I tried (free couple sheets) of the P&P, but the waste for the money, I stayed with the picture paper.

The right magazine paper works as well. The wrong magazine paper crinkles up in the printer

 

[gaurav_sharma132]

Hello,

I tried my first attempt of making PCB by toner transfer method using DESMAT inkjet glossy sheet and press. The transfer is successful. But I got some problems as follow...

1. The copper clad becomes whitish completely when left ideal for 15-20 sec as you can see in image I uploaded.
2. The toner on copper clad get easily removed by simply scratching it... not a strong bond I think

So please help me out.

-------------
Regards
Gaurav Sharma

 

[mramos1]

The white parts is the gloss coating from the paper.

Use your thumbs and rub it off while it is soaking. It is OK if it's on the toner part but do not leave it between the traces or on the through holes (if any).

 

[Hero999]

Try using your camera's macro setting, that picture is far to blurry to see anything clearly.

In my experience the toner doesn't stick to the board that well but that isn't a problem because it still resists the etchant.

Did you try magazine paper?

I've not had any problems with the white stuff.

If all else fails, try normal printer paper, it isn't as good as magazine paper but at least you can be certain it's compatible with your printer.