Press-n-Peel PCB problem

[SURROUND]

sexy magasine papers are good. i like photo resist method though.

 

[btcg]

The laminator we are talking about is a heated roller setup used to laminate paper or cardboard between plastic. Instead of ironing you run the PCB through the laminator a few times.

There has been some progress in toner transfer. I like the PulsarProFx system others go for Press and Peel (P&P).

The pulsar paper is coated with a starch that turns to slime when wet. The paper floats off the PCB in about a minute. It seems this also allows for a finer line.

To see a quick overview of the pulsar process see . This is an older page. The new (under construction) website says the process is 8 minutes. This is without drilling holes or warming up the laminator.

Frank, the inventor behind Pulsar has a neat etching method where you wipe the copper off the PCB with a sponge and ferric chloride.

The same people also make DecalPro. A system for making carrier free decals in color or foil. Fun stuff.

3v0

I received an e-mail from Frank, and my order will be here tomorrow.

Thanks again for the info.

 

[btcg]

Originally Posted by 3v0
The laminator we are talking about is a heated roller setup used to laminate paper or cardboard between plastic. Instead of ironing you run the PCB through the laminator a few times.

There has been some progress in toner transfer. I like the PulsarProFx system others go for Press and Peel (P&P).

The pulsar paper is coated with a starch that turns to slime when wet. The paper floats off the PCB in about a minute. It seems this also allows for a finer line.

To see a quick overview of the pulsar process see link. This is an older page. The new (under construction) website says the process is 8 minutes. This is without drilling holes or warming up the laminator.

Frank, the inventor behind Pulsar has a neat etching method where you wipe the copper off the PCB with a sponge and ferric chloride.

The same people also make DecalPro. A system for making carrier free decals in color or foil. Fun stuff.

3v0


Just got off the phone with Frank from Pulsar. My unit will be here later today, but he had a few pointers I thought I'd share:


Little known is that Laser printers have a density setting (usually 1 to 5). Take the setting out of econo-mode and set the density on its highest setting: 5

Use only .032 thickness copper clad boards, max size 8x10. You can use thicker boards, but you have to listen closely for "clicking" sounds, and if you hear clicking, put pressure on the board to help feed it through. This prevents the gears from breaking.

It's a good idea to listen for the clicking, even when using a .032. Dittos as to above, should you hear the clicking.

Press-N-Peel is generally too thick, and the plastic does not allow a good heat transfer, although some have had success with it.

Frank also noted that the Brother laser printers are having issues because their toner has an epoxy mix, hence the problems people are having.

Frank is a nice guy, and answers his own phone, should customers have questions.

 

[gaurav_sharma132]

Hi guys,

I am going to make PCB at my home for the first time. And I have all the necessary equipment other then paper that is used for toner transfer. So please help me in order to choose the paper. As the pnp is expensive so please suggest me paper other than pnp that gives perfect result.....

Thanks in Advance

Regards
Gaurav Sharma

 

[Sceadwian]

Nothing gives 'perfect results' just use glossy paper, such as magazine print as suggested. If the toner transfer becomes completly botched scrape off the rest of the toner and start again, but don't do that too many times eventually you will wear the copper down.

 

[3v0]

It is important to understand that the paper needs to do two things.

The first is to hold the toner during printing and up to the point where it is fused / transfered to the PCB.

The second is that it must release the toner when wet.

Most papers are good at the first and very bad on the second. Glossy papers with high clay content help prevent the liquid melted toner from soaking into the fibers of the paper.

In general you have to strike a balance between the first and second.

The pulsar paper is coated with starch. This allows it to be good at the first and the second. The starch turns to liquid when wet and the toner floats away from the paper. This allows one to make finer lines then you can make with other paper.

Unfortunately there are many places in the world where you can not get the pulsar paper. It costs about 2 cents US per square inch to use.

 

[Sceadwian]

Coated with Starch? So dusting glossy print paper (or any paper for that matter) with starch and then brushing off most of it would probably help?

 

[Rolf]

BS!

Originally Posted by bl cg {snip}

Press-N-Peel is generally too thick, and the plastic does not allow a good heat transfer, although some have had success with it.

{snip}.

BS!
P&P is as simple, fast, reliable and reasonable.
I would say that all failures are by people that can't follow simple instructions.
The P&P is actual thinner than the average sheet of copy paper! P&P is 0.0025" versus 0.0030" for the paper thickness.
And it is economical and fast to use because no laminator is needed. For the cost of a laminator you should be able to get a lifetime supply.

 

[3v0]

Coated with Starch? So dusting glossy print paper (or any paper for that matter) with starch and then brushing off most of it would probably help?

More like disolve the starch in water and coat the paper then dry.

 

[3v0]

BS!
P&P is as simple, fast, reliable and reasonable.
I would say that all failures are by people that can't follow simple instructions.
The P&P is actual thinner than the average sheet of copy paper! P&P is 0.0025" versus 0.0030" for the paper thickness.
And it is economical and fast to use because no laminator is needed. For the cost of a laminator you should be able to get a lifetime supply.

P&P is a good product and much better then paper in general.

I have been told by people who have used both that the Pulsar will provide a finer line. I think it is because the starch releases the toner while P&P requires you to peel.

You can use Pulsar without the laminator. But once you use one you would never want to do so, with any toner tranfer.

 

[Rolf]

Nothing gives 'perfect results' just use glossy paper, such as magazine print as suggested. If the toner transfer becomes completly botched scrape off the rest of the toner and start again, but don't do that too many times eventually you will wear the copper down.

There are many ready available petroleum based solvents that dissolve and remove toner in a jiffy, no scraping needed.
The best one (fastest) I have found is "Paint Brush and Roller Cleaner". It is obviously made for oil based paints.

 

[3v0]

I have been misquoted regarding P&P. I have no problem with people using it because you can do a much nicer job with it then paper.

You see my suggest Pulsar because I have personal experience with how it works, and as far as I know you can do lines that are finer.

There are many ready available petroleum based solvents that dissolve and remove toner in a jiffy, no scraping needed.
The best one (fastest) I have found is "Paint Brush and Roller Cleaner". It is obviously made for oil based paints.

If I am doing a few boards I use acetone. If it is just one board I often grab a spray can of carburetor cleaner.

 

[Rolf]

P&P is a good product and much better then paper in general

I have been told by people who have used both that the Pulsar will provide a finer line. I think it is because the starch releases the toner while P&P requires you to peel..{snip}
QUOTE]

I would not know because I only use P&P and I have no problem with 0,006" lines!
And this is not hearsay.
Is what you are saying that Pulsar is consistently producing lines finer than 0.006"?

 

[gaurav_sharma132]

firstly thanks for ur replies....

But you all are mainly talking abt pulsar and pnp paper and that is not available here. I have to order it online it costs to me and me not having enough money left now as to spend on that papers as I already spent on the other equipments.

So please suggest me any low cost method.

As Sceadwian is talking abt magazine paper ....
Is it ok for laser printer ??
I think it get stucks in printer as it is not a standard papar(A4 sheet).
Please guide me properly as u all have some experience with PCB designing...

Regards
Gaurav Sharma

 

[BeeBop]

firstly thanks for ur replies....

But you all are mainly talking abt pulsar and pnp paper and that is not available here. I have to order it online it costs to me and me not having enough money left now as to spend on that papers as I already spent on the other equipments.

So please suggest me any low cost method.

As Sceadwian is talking abt magazine paper ....
Is it ok for laser printer ??
I think it get stucks in printer as it is not a standard papar(A4 sheet).
Please guide me properly as u all have some experience with PCB designing...

Regards
Gaurav Sharma

With pulsar paper, I cut a piece just large enough to do what I want, and tape it to a sheet of A4 (8.5 x 11 inch) paper which will get through the printer easily.
I used to do the same thing with magazine paper, and it worked well.

First print your board on a sheet of A4, so you will have a guide for placement of your magazine paper.

 

[gaurav_sharma132]

ohh man that a very nice trick...Thnx for it first.

Then simply put it on the copper clad and press it for 5-10 min???

Magazine paper leave a good trace on copper clad after peeling it off ??

 

[BeeBop]

ohh man that a very nice trick...Thnx for it first.

Then simply put it on the copper clad and press it for 5-10 min???

Magazine paper leave a good trace on copper clad after peeling it off ??

Press it with an iron, but 5 minutes seems too long. I think probably around 3 minutes, but I use a laminator, so have not done it this way for quite some time.

Don't try to peel off the magazine paper though. Soak the thing in warm water, perhaps with a drop or two of soap, for a few minutes. It should come off fairly easily, but you may have to scrub off some paper residue with a toothbrush. Be gentle when you do this as you can scratch off your traces.

 

[gaurav_sharma132]

Dude as you have experience making PCB by using magazine paper...so can you Please enlist the steps from beginning as I am going to make it for the first time.....

Thanks in Advance

Regards
Gaurav Sharma

 

[3v0]

I would not know because I only use P&P and I have no problem with 0,006" lines!
And this is not hearsay.
Is what you are saying that Pulsar is consistently producing lines finer than 0.006"?

Now using any standard 1200 dpi laser printer and the TIA applicator, you can image down to .006" (and below!) We've had customers who have reported traces down to .004"!

I would not call this hearsay. The guy who runs pulsar is very up front.

To date i have been happy with .01 and larger traces. Maybe as I get into the fine pitch stuff I will go smaller. I personaly have not tried .006 and .004, played with .008 but never used them in a project. At some point it depends on what the laser printer can do.

 

[BeeBop]

Dude as you have experience making PCB by using magazine paper...so can you Please enlist the steps from beginning as I am going to make it for the first time.....

Thanks in Advance

Regards
Gaurav Sharma

Basically:

1. [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Print the image to paper[/FONT]
2. [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Transfer the image to the copper surface using an iron or similar
   [/FONT]
3. [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Remove the paper by soaking the board[/FONT]
4. [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Etch the board to remove all exposed copper[/FONT]
5. [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Remove the toner circuit image with acetone... done![/FONT]