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Numbers for SPDT relay icons

Discussion in 'Automotive Electronics' started by BibaResto, Nov 27, 2016.

  1. BibaResto

    BibaResto New Member

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    SPDT+SwtchLimits.png.png I know numbers for icons is so lame. However would someone/someones please put the numbers for a SPDT relay, 30, 85, 86, 87, 87a by each letter?

    Yes this might be for my spoiler. I believe it is similar to a Schematic I have which has the same elements but both SPDT relays schematics are identical with each limit switch on either side of + on a SPDT switch . It just doesn't seem right. However, this one uses a basic on/off switch which might not work - unless 'off' automatically unwinds the motor.
     
  2. MaxHeadRoom78

    MaxHeadRoom78 Active Member

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    The standard Auto numbers for the relay is the coil is 86 -85, with 30 as the common for the contacts, 87a is the N.C. contact and 87 the N.O.
    Max.
     
  3. BibaResto

    BibaResto New Member

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    MaxHeadRoom78, apparently you're in the same boat as I am. That is, unable to attach the coil's numbers to coil schematic's which only have icons.

    Perhaps there is someone out there who can help us solve this conundrum.

    Should there be those who aren't sure what I mean by icons - it is similar to symbols.

    I'd sure like to see if it is possible that the above schematic solves the situation or not. But I don't want to guess at which wire goes where.
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Les Jones

    Les Jones Well-Known Member

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    I would not bother trying to identify the numbering system. I would first identify the coil with a multimeter. I would then Identify the NO contact as follows. Test which of the remaining three (After the coil.) show continuity between them. These will be the common anf NC contacts (But you do not know which is whic at this point) The one that does not show continuity is the NO contact. Now apply power to the coil. Test which of the two that had shown continuity now show continuity to the NO contact. This will be the common.

    Les.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. BibaResto

    BibaResto New Member

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    Les, thanks, but I have not a clue which type of contact on a SPDT relay I need for a specific wire. Not to mention my multimeter just gave up the ghost.

    I find it hard to believe that someone reasonably knowledgeable in relays couldn't look at the above schematic and know exactly which wire of the five available goes where. And, yes, I realize there are several contacts on this schematic which are common.
     
  7. Les Jones

    Les Jones Well-Known Member

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    I've just Googled "automobile relay connections" an found this information which agrees with the information that Max has given you. I think I may have missunderstood your problem. I think now that your problem is that you do not understand the schematic. In the diagram in post #1 the coil connections are D and E which will be pin numbers 85 and 86 (It does not matter which is which.) The common contact is B which is pin 30. Assuming the relay is shown de energised (No power to the coil) then A is the normally closed contact (Pin 87A) and C is the normally open contact. (Pin 87)

    Les.
     
  8. debe

    debe Active Member

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    What would help is a photo of the particular relay you are going to use from the bottom & side views. Theres just too many combinations of Automotive relays. In the Bosch range for example ones used by Ford are not interchangeable with ones used by GM, they look the same but are wired internaly diferent.
     
  9. MaxHeadRoom78

    MaxHeadRoom78 Active Member

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  10. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Biba doesn't like my posts for some reason.

    http://www.12voltplanet.co.uk/relay-guide.html

    Recommended polarity
    Not all automotive relays have the same pin numbering
    Pinout
    See the article for details. So we really can't give you a pinout without the relay. Ohmmeter is a good suggestion.

    Suppression diodes
    Important: There needs to be a diode across the coil where the band points to the negative voltage of the coil.

    Motor should short to ground --> schematic shows short to +12
    Not a good idea (Les and Max, back me up) to have the motor "shorted" to +12 at rest. It's better to "short to ground".

    Activation switch
    The "switch" in the schematic could be SPDT (ON)-off-(ON) or ON-none-ON or even ON-OFF-ON () designates momentary. The schematic shows it as a ON-none-ON switch. Lots of ways to specify switches. SPDT is Single Pole, Double Throw, but more info is needed like momentary and center off.

    Caution - limit switches
    The automotive relays draw about 140 mA. Who knows what yours draw? A "good" number for current through a switch is 5-10 mA without fancy materials. The reason why I say good is because 10 mA is usually sufficient to remove any oxides from the contacts. 140 mA MIGHT be too high for the spoiler limit switch. There is no arc suppression across the switch. Thus a limited LIFETIME and premature failure is possible. It's obvious that the spoiler uses LOGIC level switching, which is usually a pull up resistor to +5.

    Multimeter

    One can be had for $6.00 http://www.harborfreight.com/7-function-digital-multimeter-69096.html

    Motor protection
    A PTC (Positive Temperature Thermister) mounted on the motor is probably a good idea, but in this case a properly sized fuse is an absolute necessity.

    Internet schematic confusion
    There are lots of ways to achieve the same result and most of it boils down to positive or negative logic which effectively means whether or not +12 is switched or ground is switched. House wiring switches the HOT wire. Some cars turn the dome light on with a switch to ground. Other cars, a switch to +12V.

    Conclusion
    The circuit is not ideal and may fail prematurely and may adversely affect other car systems. The lack of suppression diodes can affect other systems. The lack of suppression on the limit switches could cause the limit switches to fail. A fuse and PTC must be selected carefully.

    Les and Max -- Back me up, please.

    Biba
    I am considering breadboarding a circuit for you (minus the power relays), but I do not have the parts to do so. It would contain some options as designed.
    A "simple" circuit, would use the SPDT center off switch and a bipolar LED. Thus you could have red/green indications of full up and fully down.

    I cannot incorporate the OEM switch without some reverse engineering: namely the resistor values, LED voltage and current and/or how dash illumination is handled. In this case "a "chime" would be the best way to indicate down, just as the OEM system does. The LED could indicate UP or out of position. One may be easier. It would help if you knew if the chime was a module. If anyone else has some chime ideas, great. Biba could actually record the sound the "other car" makes to make it more authentic.

    So, how many terminals is on the OEM switch? The service manual does not show that information. The only info is how the two terminals of the switch connects to two unknown resistors.
     
  11. BibaResto

    BibaResto New Member

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    KISS, hopefully you are okay with that abbreviation. I greatly appreciate your posts, but I would first like to explore a considerably simpler solution first. Apparently it is quite common for all manner of applications for what I'm trying accomplish. I would appreciate it if you go to http://www.robmeyerproductions.com/bows.html

    Scroll down to Simple DC Motor Control'. What is laid out is 'almost' exactly what I'm looking for. I've wired up what he has except I do not understand how two SPDT momentary contact limit switches can be used. The limit switches on the spoiler have three wires with the minus common to the both of them. I'm using a SPDT momentary switch to control it, but nothing is happening. I'm sure it could be made to work. That said if it turns out to be a dead end, I'm open for a more complex solution.
     
  12. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Biba:

    KISS works.

    That webpage has a lot of gotcha's neglected. Those I covered in post #9.

    Two momentary limit switches will work without issues ignoring the gotcha's. They need to be independent and open when the system is at a limit. They are momentary because they close when the system is not at a limit allowing both an RETRACT and DEPLOY command.

    Conceptually, the idea is to have a relay that grounds both ends of the motor when at rest, This grounding causes the motor to act as a generator into a short.
    The author decided that both sides at +12 accomplishes the same end result - the motor stops quickly. This makes the motor stop really fast and not overun.

    Each of the relays can be thought of DEPLOY and RETRACT. Use whatever opposites work for you CW/CCW; UP/DOWN, OUT/IN whatever. Whatever floats your boat.

    So, if you IGNORE the limit switches for the moment, activating the DEPLOY relay (energizing the coil) makes the motor go in the DEPLOY direction.
    Activating the RETRACT does the opposite.

    To activate that relay you can employ positive or negative logic which means a switch to ground or a switch to positive. I, sort of, care.

    It's then easy enough to wire an SPDT switch (on)-none-(on); call it S0 or Switch(Operate), to activate one or the other relays. Ignoring the limit switch, it's one of the power door lock circuits that I linked too.

    Since the automotive relays have different wiring schemes and terminal assignments, you have to pick the right one. USUALLY the diagram is on the relay itself in schematic form. That's what you need to use. If you don't have that provide the model # of the relay.

    So, if you can't make the motor do stop/brake, forward, reverse with the momentary switch there is something wrong with the wiring. We know that not all automotive SPDT relays use the same terminal nomenclature. Way back when the 30's and 87's were circuit numbers, so this tradition carried forward.
    It was also decided that some terminals should have a positive voltage on it as a "CONVENTION". You can get relays with an integral suppression diode or not. In that case the terminal has to follow the convention.

    The right wiring is really simple. The common terminal gets connected to the motor. The normally closed terminal of each relay goes to ground and the normal open terminal goes to the motor supply voltage, The website you referenced ignores the details. it's wired in a way that will work, but it's not the way that most of us EE types would do it.

    Your left with two coils and if you follow a convention spelled out by the DIN standard, you would make the designated terminal always positive. You can pick. When using a switch, switching the positive makes sense. In automobiles, the dome light switching ground is a cheaper switch to make. So, grounding one of the relay terminals and moving the positive wire makes more sense. A short to ground would blow a fuse instead of making the motor run which is a good thing.

    At last count, you were unable to achieve that. You have to be able to achieve that basic functionality. You can pretty much BUY this functionality already wired with the dual socket, because it's a common thing to do.

    No relays activated - motor stopped
    Two relays activated - motor stopped
    one relay activated - one direction or the other depending on what relay

    Now, we ADD the limit switch complexity, It's real simple: you REMOVE the ability to go UP when the UP limit switch is activated and you do the same respectively for down. This means the UP or DOWN signal has to be opened or turned off. You CANNOT do this with two switches that have three wires, have one side common and whose contacts CLOSE when a limit is reached. You need two separate contacts with the sense reversed.

    If these limits were two conventional INDEPENDENT SPDT microswitches and you had access to all of the contacts, it can be done easily. That spoiler limit signal has to be INVERTED to work.

    There is an unknown of just how much current can that limit switch carry and how much current can the mechanism limit switch, switch? I know, by being an EE, that there needs to be a certain amount of "wetting current" on a contact unless certain materials are used in the switch manufacturer to lower that number. A switch may not reliably switch 1e-6 Amps of current, but generally will for 1 to 10 mA. We can't infer much unless it's measured on an operating car. Measuring low currents is hard. That was something I did professionally as part of my job, I measured currents at 1e-12 Amps or Picoamps.

    Each time a switch connects, it can arc if a large enough current flows. That arc can wear away a thin coating of the metal if it's not designed to switch that amount of current. A switch that switches 10 mA is made differently than one that switches 10 Amps of current. It also makes a difference if it's switching AC or DC and it makes a difference if it is switching an inductive load which a relay is.

    You have to invert the sense and separate the functionality of the spoiler limits. Your input is a set of contacts that are closed at a limit with a common wire to two sets of contacts that open at each limit without a common wire.

    As I like to design things, you shoot for the moon and then find something in-between. Your specifications include every thing you can possibly want to what is minimally necessary and finally what functionality you can live with and at what price point,

    The moon is something simplistically like:
    Create something that mimics the operation of the OEM spoiler. This includes automatically deploying and retraction with an alarm at 85 MPH. Manual deploying occurs with the original switch which has an undefined resistance arrangement to allow determining of the three positions of the switch, It contains a malfunction LED that does Y. The retraction and deployment is done in stages. If a "malfunction" is detected retracting, the spoiler returns to the up. When deploying, it deploys in stages to shoo away people or whatever needs to get out of the way. The spoiler chimes when it's fully retracted.

    The details are missing. There is a lot of stuff there.

    The lowest rung is:
    A switch to manually operate the spoiler up or down with a momentary switch and no limits.

    The must absolutely have (safety critical) is something like:
    Use the OEM limit switches.
    Two motor protection schemes.
    One for motor burnout protection independent of the idiot that puts the wrong fuse in.
    A fuse that will protect the mechanism if the limit switches fail.
    While depressing the switch momentarily to deploy is the mode of operation for complete deployment, it not advised unless it's fully processor controlled.
    Relay coils must have diode suppression.
    The limit switch contacts may have to be evaluated if suppression is necessary/

    The like to have is:
    Use the OEM switch.
    Some way to detect the fully deployed and fully retracted position. (e.g. chime and re-purposed LED)

    The difficult to do without a processor rung:
    Prevent playing with the switch behavior which could blow the spoiler fuse.
    Current sensing.

    To use the OEM limit switches, you have to invert the limit sense in the way they operate, and separate the functionality of the spoiler limits to RETRACT and DEPLOY. the OEM input is a set of contacts that are closed at a limit with a common wire to two sets of contacts that open at each limit without a common wire. The OEM usually connects the common terminal to ground.

    Before adding limit functionality. the relays must function in the following manner:

    No relays activated - motor stopped
    Two relays activated - motor stopped
    one relay activated - one direction or the other depending on what relay


    I want to stop here and see if you (Biba) understands what was said in this post.
     
  13. BibaResto

    BibaResto New Member

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    As a matter of fact I have not a clue what you are saying. People who really 'get' electrical/electronics feel it is more-or-less quite simple - providing it is not an overly difficult 'project'. I've been restoring vintage Alfa Romeo for a living for 24 years. While I farm out the engine's machine work, I completely rebuild them myself. Though they're 'only' 4-cylinder engines, they have dual overhead cams (which need to be shimmed to tight restrictions). The engines have always run with no problems. That is because I can SEE what I am doing. Among other things I remove all of the electrical components including the wiring looms. I have few problems since I mark everything when removing.

    The relays are Bosch 0 332 209 150. There is another number but I assume this first one is the model number - the other is V23294-A1001-Y036.

    There is a fellow on the Chrysler Crossfire Forum who has a Miata with a working Crossfire Spoiler. I gather it is activated by a simple switch. Unfortunately, if it is possible, he has less of a clue how it works than myself. He bought it that way.

    Of course I do know how the XF (Crossfire) spoiler works - in general. When I checked the voltage of the spoiler's motor on the Ltd while opening it through the dash switch, it was 13.5V. The voltage for the limit switches was 12.5V.

    I do not need any kind of warning chime. No one is in danger of getting hurt when it is deploying.

    I've just ordered a new multimeter which should be here in a few days so that I can check out the voltages on my set-up.

    Please feel free to contact me directly on biba@earthlink.net since I would like a ball park cost on both the Basic and and Moon options - along with time frames.
     
  14. debe

    debe Active Member

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    Now that you have identified the particular relay you are using, is this of any help. RELAY WIRING.png RELAY BOSCH   0 332 209 150.jpg
     
  15. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Even though I don't LIKE the wiring take out the limit switches in the picture and replace the contacts of the limit switches show in the pocture with shorts.

    If you use your motor only, you should get CW, OFF/BRAKE and CCW using the SPDT Center off, momentary switch.

    ==

    I can relate to most of this, because I re-built a lawn mower engine when I was 10 YO with Dad's guidance, Rebuilt a wrecked car when i was 15. That was to be my car. Put an AC unit in a Japanease vehicle from a box. The carb, had about 120 parts to rebuild it. It was my third carb. Two I did before I was 16 YO. Then Ialso acquired machinist's skills. Tasks don't bother me. The company I worked for bought a used electron beam evaporator, but the wires were cut instead of unplugged and marked. Management was betting that I would be unable to get it working. I did. The equipment needed 208 3 phase at 90 Amps to operate and it did generate a regulated 15 kV at about 3 Amps. The projects I've gotten involved in are all over the map. That particular one was very lethal.

    ==

    I don't necessarily know how it's supposed to work.

    The limit switch voltages, I would have expected around 5 VDC when not at a limit and 0V when they were at a limit. Good to know. Can easily mimic the 12 V thing.

    I want to take a few "baby steps" concerning the SWITCH. Link to or post a pic of the switch front and back if you can. I think you did somewhere.

    How many wires does it have?

    I know it has two terminals and two resistors inside that need to make 3 states. The resistance of those two terminals and the position of the switch needs to be known.

    DEPLOY ; R=?
    OFF; R=?
    RETRACT; R=?

    The positions are momentary center off, correct?

    I was unable to uncover anything about the spoiler malfunction indicator wiring. Is it likely 2 wires and a LED? No multi-color stuff?

    Does the switch have Illumination (Dash lights)? What do you know about it?

    Resistances obviously needs you to have a meter

    Thanks.
     
  16. BibaResto

    BibaResto New Member

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    debe, thank you very much. I have the relays wired with D 85 and of course E as 86. Switching them around unfortunately didn't solve the problem - but I've not given up...yet.
     
  17. BibaResto

    BibaResto New Member

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    SS, keep in mind the spoiler switch on the dash in the SRT6 is just a dummy. A couple of things: What is the chime situation? Is it supposed to be a warning chime like a backing up one? I'm quite sure there is no chime for the spoiler; I'm guessing that the 'rpm' of the motor is about 4 - 6 seconds per one revolution.; I do not want a colored lighted switch; if at all possible I would like to cut out the dummy switch and - if not possible to use the original momentary rocker switch - then one which is 11/16 W - 1 9/16 H; I'll add there is a click when pressing the upper/lower switch which also has a fairly light spring; you'll note that on the partial dash rocker panel the lower white arrow is pointing to the mini LED light connection.

    To repeat: Please feel free to contact me directly on <snip> since I would like a ball park cost on both the Basic and and Moon options - along with time frames.

    If you feel you can - at least - come up with a bullet proof 'unit' to be able to switch the spoiler up and down - and better yet have it deploy at 63 mph (and changing the standard of lowering the spoiler) when ignition switch is turned off, I can ship you the spoiler, switch, and relays.

    BRSRT6SpoilerSwtch.jpg SRTXFSwitchOpen6.jpg XFSpoilerSwtchDiodes.jpg
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 5, 2016
  18. Dr_Doggy

    Dr_Doggy Well-Known Member

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    Hi again!
    I am still suspicious that your problem is not what you think it is.....
    the simplest way to test to see what is wrong here is to see if pin 85 on each relay is getting voltage when you flip the switch either way, then we are able to narrow down the problem.... also are you able to hear the relays click? .... if pin85 is not getting any volts then there is no point to test the relay past that

    1) with voltmeter:
    2) test to see if limit switch is getting power...
    3) test to see if limit switch is outputting power..
    4) after getting power to pin 85 it will be easier to get power to pin 30


    voltmeters are handy, but all you need as replacement is: a wire on the "-" of your battery leading to a small lightbulb(smaller is better, lightbulb cannot be larger than limit switch AMP values).... for you i highly recommend the $10 for a cheap new meter
     
  19. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    http://srt-6.com/pdf/tsb/SB_23_040_04_Spoiler.pdf

    Quote from above:

    OPERATION
    The rear spoiler is powered by an electric motor
    located directly below the spoiler wing in the spoiler
    assembly. When the vehicle reaches 62 MPH (102
    km/h), the rear spoiler deploys, giving the vehicle 40
    Lbs. (356 Newtons) of downforce at 80 MPH (129
    km/h). As the vehicle decelerates, the rear spoiler
    starts to retract at a speed of 39 MPH (62 km/h). When
    retracted, the spoiler nestles between the rear quarter
    panels and the
    ZH
    _______________________________________________________
    REAR SPOILER
    2328108 - 3
    The spoiler can be manually deployed at lower speed
    using the override switch mounted in the center
    console. Pushing the switch up raises the rear spoiler.
    Pushing the switch down lowers the rear spoiler.
    To prevent injury, the rear spoiler retracts in defined
    steps to allow time to pull any hands or foreign objects
    that may be in the path of the rear spoiler before it is all
    the way down. If the rear spoiler gets disturbed while
    retracting automatically or while retracting manually,
    the rear spoiler is automatically driven up again and will
    lock in the up position. During manual retraction, if you
    let up on the switch, the rear spoiler will be driven to its
    up position. When retracting the rear spoiler manually,
    a single audible chime is produced to indicate to the
    driver that the rear spoiler is in the fully retracted
    position.
    A warning signal (LED) on the spoiler override
    switch illuminates, indicating a malfunction to the driver.
    A malfunction that prevents the spoiler from deploying
    illuminates a red warning lamp in the override switch.
    rear liftgate window.

    End Quote.

    PS. I saw a Crossfire in the other lane a day ago. I saw a Lamborgini about a mile from the house this summer. I've seen one other sighting in the state. Vipers and DeLorean's are rare too.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2016
  20. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Biba:

    I do have both of your emails. Just not ready to take this private yet.

    Here's

    Spoiler_Schematic.jpg

    Coutesy of a post at crosfire.org, here's the schematic of the spoiler/spoiler switch.

    This schematic should, in my opinion, show the malfunction indicator, but it does not. I THINK it's lumped into all of the other malfunction indicators on the ECM shematic.

    Note that the spoiler switch has an internal resistor. I can't see that on the pic you posted, UNLESS it's on the other side.

    Down should have some resistance What is that resistance?
    Off should have Infinate resistance and
    UP should be a short.

    I asked, how many wires on the switch. I can't even tell that from the pic you posted. In fact, I'm not sure it's even a spoiler switch. The spoiler switch looks like the second switch from the right, but why is it labeled OFF?

    The LED could be a "naked LED" or the current limiting resistior could be on the switch PCB.

    It doesn't even look like the switch can go in the vacant position and it looks like there are only two contacts (The added arrow in the top pic)?
    The pins are labeled 2 and 6, so the connector would be expected to have at least 6 pins. (2) Illumination; (2); MF LED; (2) Funky switch or something else. Some could be vacant.

    So, very, very confused.
     
  21. BibaResto

    BibaResto New Member

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    I was the one that posted the schematic above along with others. The real problem of trying to imitate the opening and closing of the spoiler is because it goes into the very dark hole of the Body Control Module. It might be possible that there are tons of lines of programing - along with all of those necessary electronic do-dads - for the various cycles.

    I've barely used the dash switch to open and close the spoiler on the Ltd. I've certainly not heard a chime - but even with help, my hearing isn't all that great.

    The switch has two wires - one for up, one for down. The switch looks just like the off switch (to help you keep the car on the road) but has a side diagram of the car with the spoiler extended and the other with no spoiler. The switch fits fine. Looking at the side view you see the upper far right black plastic with two wires 9which turn to the left when iinstalled. The black one which is built into the dash unit slips right under the wire section and connects two pins for the center LED. The pins are hidden behind the gray plastic section just to the left of where the black section plugs in. From the left edge of the black vertical plastic to the end of the push-in plugs is 1 5/16" - so yes, it is deep.

    I'm having no luck with getting continuity on the switch/relays and have no reason why this is the case. Do you have any thoughts on a different type of switch other than the Spal type one I've been using? You did say that the relays I have are the 'correct' ones?

    Getting the limit switches to work shouldn't be too difficult and you can't get much simpler than a wire for each side and common ground wire. How they know how and when to switch off poles is something else. But having the motor trying to go past where the stopping limit is - so it then rotates the outer portion of the motor, causing the contact on the low side to get bent, along with shorting out since the contact hits metal - makes the limit switches mandatory. However, we could use other limiting switches if that would help.
     

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