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Non Standard DIP Pin Sizes

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MrAl

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Hello,

There are a number of different pin sizes, shapes, and diameters. This leads to problems sometimes which i'll describe here.

Most DIP chips can mount in PC board holes that are of a very very small diameter. Most sockets that hold DIP chips have similar pins on the bottom, so they can also mount in the same PC board holes. This allows us to use sockets when possible so we can exchange the chip easily.

I purchased a ZIF socket and expected the bottom pins to be roughly the same size as a regular DIP socket. But apparently they wanted to change the whole thing to something else, and who knows where they got the idea to go with a non standard shape/size/orientation. Let me explain in more detail.

A 'normal' 0.3 inch row spaced DIP socket or IC package has pins that are rectangular, but the long side of the rectangular pins is oriented along the LENGTH of the package. The ZIF socket does have rectangular pins, but they are larger than a standard socket and also are oriented along the WIDTH of the package. That makes it impossible to insert into a PC board that has holes drilled for a regular socket or IC package.

Any ideas why this is so? I am sure they can be made more standard one way or another. Why make then non standard? That makes it hard for a manufacturer to use a ZIF socket as an afterthought.

I am including a picture of the bottom of the ZIF socket (bottom of pic) and two DIP headers for reference, but you can look at a standard IC socket or package to see the more standard pin shapes and sizes. Note also that one of the DIP headers shown here also has non standard pin diameter where it is very much larger than a standard package so it will NOT plug into a machine tooled socket and maybe not even a dual wipe socket because the pins are too thick.

What it means for the ZIF socket is i have to use one of the headers to make an "adapter" for the ZIF socket, so it will fit into a standard socket or PC board drill pattern for a standard DIP package.

Any ideas?
 

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If all else fails, read the instructions. I hate when that happens.

I ran into similar things when trying to use CAT6 Quickport Jacks. Two issues surfaced:
1. Some of the jacks could not be used in close proximity; e.g. 4x4 configuration - They would not fit.
2. 110 punchdown means different things to different people.

110 has straight blades
Krone has a blade at a 45 degree angle.
So, it's sold as a 110, but is really a Krone.

Take this: https://www.electriduct.com/Junction-Box-Punch-Down-Type.html
"110 type is used for splicing two Ethernet Cat.5e and Cat 6 cables together. In addition, the Krone punch down connection provides secure continuity."
"110 and Krone punch down type"

Does this tell you it works with Krone and 110? or that Krone and 110 are available?

I have a similar model not from here. The punch downs are Krone. A 110 tool won;t work. I cannot definitely tell if it's Krone or 110. Krone has the IDC at a 45 degree angle.

There is yet another 110/Krone block but I forget what it's called. Buyer beware.

I found all of this from the "School of hard Knocks"

==

I've been hunting for a 24 and 28 pin "Carrier Socket". These were used to make make the fragile pins of a dip less fragile. It was used in the ties of having to remove the EProms for programming. Right now, they are becoming very tough to find and hard to search for. The pin side is close to the standard IC dimensions, not the hole dimensions of the standard sockets.

Carriers were also made to just insert pins from a strip and then the strip was removed. Saw them at HP.
Yet another carrier is disolveable.

==

I hear your pain. That's why it's nice to buy just one.

==

I get annoyed to a point with pictures.
Connector pics are "representative" or a 10 pin pic might represent the entire series. I don;t really mind that when it's noted.

Then there might be a tact switch. The switch pic is used for the actuator part number and the distributer says: "The pics are meaningless - didn;t you check the part number"?

I just had a issue with Digikey that resolved nicely, but not perfect. TDK Lambda modified thier datasheet/selection guide slightly so it it least informs the reader that one model uses a 2 pin output connector rather than a 4 pin. Digi-key modified their listing to make the connectors appear in the Used with list.

I find that I totally miss the Digi-key catalog even if it was just PDF. I find myself using Newark and Mouser to help find a part, but I may order for all three. Mouser is at a disadvantage for this power supply because they do not carry the connectors.

==

A lot of places are using "JST connector" without specifying the series. Then you find out that Molex may make the same connector, but call it something else. They never say it mates with JST model x connector.

MrAL. I hope you don;t consider this a hyjacking, I don't. I try to do the best I can, but still there are Gotcha's.

==

Hey, they sold you a ZIF socket, right?

Another thing I am looking for is a connector that can be placed on the wires from a 9V battery clip. For now, I would like to have SMT to thru hole availalable.

Good luck,

KISS
 
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I don´t think it matters whether the pins are square, round, flat lengthwise or widthwise. What matters is the diameter of the pins.
How wide are those pins on the zif socket?
 
Hello again,

KeepIt:
No it is interesting to hear about other's stories about things like this too.
For a 24 to 28 pin "Carrier Socket" you might have to go the same route as i am for the ZIF, make one yourself using the socket of your choice and a nice DIP header. Yeah some soldering to do but so far nothing else.
Not sure what you mean by a 9v battery clip connector. What kind of connector?

kubeek:
Well the shape and orientation does actually matter because if the shape was the same for example but the orientation was 90 degrees rotated, it would fit in a standard dual wipe socket (not a machine tool socket though). That's what i was hoping for in the first place.
The wide of each pin is about 50 percent wider than a standard dual wipe socket, and the thickness of the metal used to make the pin is also about 50 percent thicker. So look at a standard socket and multiply the width and thickness by 1.5 and that's pretty close to the ZIF socket pin dimensions.


The only method i see so far is to use that one DIP header with the grooves in the top part pins (the pins on top are forked). The ZIF socket pins are orientated so they will sit nicely inside the grooves, but it's got to be aligned perfectly and then all pins soldered for strength. That's going to take some care and careful setup. If they made the socket better to begin with none of this would be needed.
 

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I'm thinking that the reason the pins on a ZIF socket are that orientation, is due to the way the ZIF socket operates.
As the socket has to allow for different width DIP devices, perpendicular to the length, the spring contacts are simply folded from a single sheet, resulting in the fold being used as the pin for the ZIF itself.
Perhaps if they twisted the folded portion, the contacts may easily fracture or not align with the housing correctly?
 
Sparkfun uses these connectors: https://www.sparkfun.com/products/9749

and, unfortunately JST is a manufacturer and not a connector type. Molex apparently has JST compatable connectors. I ordered a really small one, but it's too small for the wire.

So, basically looking for a connector to put on the end of 9V battery clip e.g. **broken link removed** and a wire to board connector. SMT and thru hole right angle. Not sure which I would use. The 9V connector say 24 or 26 AWG. It's for a remote control I want to build. 2 pin minimum, but I might entertain other sizes.

I really want the carrier because of clearances. Just want to remove the chip a lot of times during troubleshooting.
 
Hi again,

KeepIt:
Oh i see, well the first thing that comes to mind is the connectors they use for computer (PC) fan connections (2 wire). Not sure if that's the right size though, that's 0.1 inch pin spacing.

Mickster:
Yes i agree, but clearly there must be SOME way to do it to make it more standard. The way it is currently made it needs special holes drilled in the PC board.
BTW the ZIF shown in my pictures is made by the company 3M. There is another company i know of i think is called "Aries" but i havent seen any 0.3 inch mounting pin spacing ZIF sockets offered for sale yet, as online i only find 0.6 inch mounting pin row spacing devices (even though they accept 0.3 inch row spaced IC chips in the top). The mounting pins are the pins on the bottom that go into the circuit board and get soldered during installation. The mounting pin row spacing is sometimes different than the chip pin row spacing so there are two different row spacing spec's to look at. My ZIF socket has 0.3 inch row spacing on the bottom and accepts 0.3 inch packages on top. 0.3 inch is as a regular 74LS00 TTL logic chip in DIP package.

I also see some interesting SMD package sockets coming about now which would make testing SMD packages a lot easier. Some are expensive though like $30 USD each.
 
Hi again,

I have some new pictures now and a bit more of a reply...

Mickster:
Yes that is possible, but that doesnt matter to me because a manufacturing process comes AFTER the design, not the other way around, so during the design stage almost any shape pin can be made and then manufactured. So we might not start with one that was already designed, but design it right in the first place so that it is more standard.
Also consider this: View my attached photos, then consider that if i wanted to pull that Eval socket and replace it with the ZIF socket shown previously, it would be impossible without redrilling all the PC board holes that accept the socket. That means that boards already produced can not simply change to a ZIF socket like this. That's a big disadvantage to the company that sells ZIF sockets because that limits sales to new deigns only.
Note it may be possible to do with an older board, but the holes would have to be bigger and that could cut off traces that already exist and so require inserting small thin wires into each hole to make sure it makes proper contact with both sides of the board. In other words, it's very difficult to do a full mod like that.
Now consider a socket that does have the right size pins: It's a snap and takes no more time to install than a regular socket.
Considering the normal price for these sockets is about $17 USD, they should be right to begin with dont you think?

KeepIt:
Still not exactly sure what you want. Maybe you can draw up a picture of one exactly as you need it.

Here are a few pics of the finished "product" that fits easily into the old socket or can be used to replace the old socket. Note how high it has to stick up with the extra header requirement. I am also posting a pic of the socket it has to plug into.
You can also see how nutty this looks when it's plugged in. I do have one extra socket but it is low profile.
 

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This https://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_39351_-1 looks like it would be a decent carrier. These would have 0.018" pins. Hence carrier material. Carriers prevent pins when removing IC's from sockets. A socket on a socket may or may not work.

I think these Molex Picoblade connectors https://www.molex.com/molex/products/family?channel=products&chanName=family&key=picoblade would work for me. So, I want a small connector that can attach a 9V battery clip to a board.
 
kubeek:
Well the shape and orientation does actually matter because if the shape was the same for example but the orientation was 90 degrees rotated, it would fit in a standard dual wipe socket (not a machine tool socket though). That's what i was hoping for in the first place.
The wide of each pin is about 50 percent wider than a standard dual wipe socket, and the thickness of the metal used to make the pin is also about 50 percent thicker. So look at a standard socket and multiply the width and thickness by 1.5 and that's pretty close to the ZIF socket pin dimensions.
I fail to see the point here, who would put a socket into a socket? These are meant to be soldered into boards, not stacked one on top another.
 
I'd recognize that PCB anywhere.... that's a PICkit 1 FLASH Starter Kit.
My guess is that Microchip thought the turned-pin socket would be sufficient and didn't expect a ZIF being used, especially considering the placement of the cap, resistors, diode, tact-switch and trim-pot, as NorthGuy observes.
 
I fail to see the point here, who would put a socket into a socket? These are meant to be soldered into boards, not stacked one on top another.

Hi,

I not only *would*, i actually *did*, plug a socket into a socket. That converts a standard socket into a ZIF socket if the application frequency spec's allow it. That means the user can convert their socket into a ZIF socket after market.

Didnt you see the last picture i posted with the whole thing plugged into the board?

The more conventional approach would be to unsolder the old socket, then mount and solder the new ZIF socket. But that creates serious problems with the existing board layout.
 
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On a bright side, it wouldn've fit there directly anyway.

Hi,

Ha ha, they come in smaller sizes and even low profile. I used that one because that was about the same cost as the smaller ones.
 
I'd recognize that PCB anywhere.... that's a PICkit 1 FLASH Starter Kit.
My guess is that Microchip thought the turned-pin socket would be sufficient and didn't expect a ZIF being used, especially considering the placement of the cap, resistors, diode, tact-switch and trim-pot, as NorthGuy observes.

Hi,

Well actually there is room for a bigger socket, maybe the small cap has to be removed and soldered to the back of the board, but that is the only part that might have to move. The socket i BOUGHT was 20 pin, but really the board only needs a 14 pin. If i remember right though an 18 pin socket allows a bigger chip even though not all pins mate with the actual PC board (only the programming pins are needed).

I also realize that there are in-circuit programming possibilities but i wanted to do it this way.

I am still open to other ideas though.

I also saw a programming board with two ZIF sockets already installed, but it was a different manufacturer. They had to have planned to use those sockets from the start.
On the other hand, if the board was designed to accept one of these sockets then i think a standard socket could be substituted. It's just that it cant go the other way around where we have the board designed for a standard socket and want to replace it with one of these sockets.
 
I knocked up a 40-pin ZIF board a number of years ago, using EAGLE.
It is based upon a JDM board, built by Feng3, but is not a JDM, it plugs straight into a PICkit or ICD using the 0.1 header.
https://www.hamradio.in/circuits/feng.php?sid=fb6a833773e6360ce5b01daff33e1cb3
Here's the PCB
**broken link removed**
I found that I couldn't program an 18F4550 though, because the USB lines at RC4, 5 & 6 were connected to PGC & PGD, but those were still required for other packages.
In the end, I modified the routing and added 3 2-pin headers to get around that problem.
I never etched the modified version, but it should be ok.
Here are pics of the original.
100_0454_small.JPG
100_0455_small.JPG

It's certainly not pretty and could use some tidying up, but it works.
The .sch & .brd are attached, if you would like to play around with it. (Remove the .txt from 40 Pin Zif.sch.txt)

Regards.
 

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Hi there Mickster,

Are you saying that you programemed an 18F4550 with your PicKit 1 board?

That's a nice board there, thanks for posting the clear pictures. I see your ZIF socket has 'wider' pins like mine, comparing them to the IDE 6 pin header pin sizes. Who makes that ZIF socket?

I guess i could have done it that way too, by making an adapter board that mates with the IC pin IDE header socket on board. I just didnt want to have to go through all that work. My socket as is, is soldered onto a 20 pin DIP header, then the header is plugged into a machine tooled socket, and that machine tooled socket is plugged into the original machine tooled socket in the PicKit board. The reason for the 2nd machine tooled socket was originally i wanted to be able to replace that socket as needed, after plugging and unplugging IC's all the time. That means i even have to change the original socket that comes with the PicKit board. But now with a ZIF i can get rid of that 3nd socket and just plug it into the original socket.

The whole point of this thread was that if the ZIF socket could be made with more standard pins, then it would just plug right into the original socket and then we'd have a ZIF socket with little or no work. I was asking if people had other ideas too or if they knew of a socket that was made by another company that would have more standard pins.
If there are no other ZIF sockets with standard pins then i have to say i am very surprised to find this out.

I also do not want to go to in-circuit programming for now.
 
I didn't program a 4550 with a PICkit1, I had a PICkit2 for that.
Just looked at the supported devices and 18F4550 is not listed for PICkit1, in fact the list of devices is very small.

The ZIF is marked "ELK040" and a search reveals that it is made by ECC?
https://www.batronix.com/shop/sockets/ (it is the very bottom one on the list)
I think it was ordered from Maplin in the UK, but I can't confirm that 100% as it was a number of years ago.

I do understand that you are discussing replacing sockets on pre-fabricated boards, and that it's not always that easy due to ZIF construction, but I was responding to this part in your post:
I also realize that there are in-circuit programming possibilities but i wanted to do it this way.

I am still open to other ideas though.

Regards.
 
Hi Mickster,

Yes and thanks much for that post and pictures. I was just restating what i was asking about in this thread. I guess i was hoping someone knew of a socket that had more standard bottom pins but it looks like that is not going to happen. I do like the adapter board idea too and at least that way the socket would not have to stick up high on the board.

I like to see pictures like yours not only to see how the things are actually made in real life, but also because a picture can tell us so much more than words sometimes. It's not that important but your socket is blue and mine is green, so that tells me that it was probably made by a different manufacturer (which you have confirmed now). So maybe there are no ZIF sockets out there with standard bottom pins.
 
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