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Major gains in fuel economy?

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by crashsite, Aug 18, 2008.

  1. crashsite

    crashsite Banned

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    I saw one of those funky news filler bits a couple of weeks ago that got me thinking. The guy had put one of those gizmos for separating the hydrogen and oxygen from water in his car and, voila! Increased his fuel mileage by 30%.

    Of course the first reaction to such a scheme is that it wont work because it takes more energy to crack the water than you get back when you burn the hydrogen and oxygen to turn it back into water again.

    But, are there other forces at work? Certainly, if one were to "enrich" gasoline by infusing it with additional hydrogen and oxygen, you'd get more energy from it. So, the question is: Does enriching the gasoline this way change it's characteristics such that you can get a net increase in the efficiency of the fuel?

    I'm just not enough of a chemist or chemical engineer to know. But, it doesn't sound unreasonable that there might be some combination in which the enrichment might allow a net improvement in the efficiency of the fuel.

    Does anyone here have any experience or expertise in this area?
     
  2. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    As opposed to the last several time it came up ?
     
  3. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    Some how I doubt it works, if anything it reduces the fuel economy.
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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    Do you get a huge increase in economy, if you change from regular to premium? How about all those liquids they sell to dump in your tank, when filling up? The engine itself isn't very efficient, we hardly use petroleum to its full potential as it is, how is adding stuff to it going to change the mechanical nature?
    Your driving habits have a huge impact on mileage, it's tough for the average 'Joe' to know if it's the modifications to fuel or engine, or a change in driving habits that improved the mileage.
    I don't think we've seen the end to the rising fuel costs, this slight decrease is just a marketing ploy, a few months and we'll be back on the rise. We can expect to so see many more amazing schemes to boost economy, probably a few forgotten gems from the past. You'll spend more money on these schemes, then you'll ever save at the pump. And of course there will be thousands who claim great results, admitting you fell for one of the schemes, is difficult for most, impossible for many...
     
  6. crashsite

    crashsite Banned

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    I surely have my serious doubts that something as obvious and simple as merely "supercharging" gasoline with raw hydrogen and oxygen which has surely been tested in the labs, is the answer. But, that doesn't mean that there isn't a process or technique that might be yet undiscovered.

    I'll bet there would have been a fair amount of guffaws in the vacuum tube community, a hundred years ago, about the notion of building "tubes" out of solid material (which some dreamer may have dubbed with the ridiculous moniker, "solid-state electronics").

    Actually, I'm somewhat surprized (in this computerized age) that some water injection system, such as has been used on aircraft for decades, isn't used routinely in cars to replace some of the gas from the carburetor or injector's accelerator pump with water.

    Certainly, a hydrogen enrichment scheme has the smell of snake oil about it. Hey, maybe snake oil is a viable additive to improve mileage.....
     
  7. kchriste

    kchriste New Member Forum Supporter

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    No difference unless your engine is designed to use high octane fuel. Putting premium in the tank of a car that uses regular is just a waste of money.
    Same thing. If you're lucky, and the crap in the bottle burns as well as gasoline, you get a little more mileage that way. ;)
    The solution is to drive smaller cars with smaller engines. I used to think that the "Mad Max" movies were silly with people driving big cars during a severe fuel shortage. North America's love of the SUV has changed my mind. :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2008
  8. Pommie

    Pommie Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I thought a modern car would adjust the fuel/air ratio by using the oxygen sensor in the exhaust and therefore you would get better mileage from higher octane fuel.

    As for the OP's question, it's nonsense.

    Mike.
     
  9. rjvh

    rjvh New Member

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    More efficiency for your liter of petrol is easyer to get in your drive train and all related to it
    make sure your tires are on the right pressure is one of them

    make sure you change your oil on time (engine and transmision)

    wash your car (sounds funny but a clean smooth car has less drag)

    use LED lights for your city lights (the small bulp in the headlight assembely)

    if you have to stop for more than 30 sec shut the motor off (some trafick lights have count down timers)

    when you cruising and you want to overtake some other car swich of the aircon and switch it back on when the manouver is made

    acselaration is the biggest consumer of petrol so try to keep one speed for a long time (verry hard to do in city traffic)

    Robert-Jan
     
  10. philba

    philba New Member

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    I find it ironic that people come up with all these ways to save gas but forget the simplest - drive less. Oh No! I couldn't possibly stop driving so much, it's a violation of my human rights.
     
  11. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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    That's my point, if the car wasn't designed to make use of the enriched fuel, it's not going to perform any better. There won't be any huge gains on any car not heavily modified. Probably get better gains with an oil change and a tune-up.
     
  12. mneary

    mneary New Member

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    Octane is a measurement of the fuel's burning rate, not its energy content. Higher octane fuel actually burns slower, so it can be used at a higher compression ratio without detonation (pinging).

    Higher octane without a higher compression ratio has almost no effect.
     
  13. mneary

    mneary New Member

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    If you're lucky, and the crap in the bottle burns as well as gasoline, then you just found a way to pay $50 a gallon for fuel. :eek:
     
  14. crashsite

    crashsite Banned

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    That's a very accurate assement except that I've always questioned whiether burning premium gasoline in most cars may actually reduce performance. You get the best combustion at the optimal compression for the octane rating (octanes burn slower than heptanes and the octane rating is the ratio of the two...and, can be artificially increased by the use of additives, allowing octane ratings that exceed 100 (denoting more octanes than there is gasoline!)).

    When burning premium in a lower compression engine, it makes sense that not all the fuel will burn in time and some will go out the tailpipe. Trying to compensate by adjusting the mixture wont work since the effects are counterproductive (ie: leaning the mixture doesn't make the gasoline burn any faster...it just provides less fuel to give the engine power). Now, I know that's not strictly true since there are many variables in the cylinders.

    But, you don't see many people who warn against using premium when not needed. Maybe they know something I don't? (very possible).
     
  15. ArrowHead

    ArrowHead New Member

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    Bad language deleted, such language isn't tolerated here - moderator.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2008
  16. mneary

    mneary New Member

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    The slower burn rate of high octane fuel isn't slow enough to cause incomplete combustion, it's just enough to prevent detonation.
     
  17. crashsite

    crashsite Banned

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    Less then optimal is less than optimal

    If the burn rate for the recommended gasoline grade and compression is optimal for the engine design, it would seem like changing to a grade with a slower burn rate would produce a result that is not optimal. There would be even less tendency to knock but, using the correct grade for the engine already resolves that.

    Burning premium wont hurt the engine but, with continual use, I think it may not only reduce performance, it may also promote carbon build up.

    At one time I was thinking about the "ultimate engine". One that, through a cam action on the crankshaft, would change the compression (along with all the other variables that are normally adjusted and controlled), so the engine could adapt to just about any fuel or fuel grade.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2008
  18. bryan1

    bryan1 Well-Known Member

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    Well I find the best way for fuel economy is get a company car with a fuel card. In the last year I put close to 20K in fuel and it didnt cost me a cent.:D:D:D:rolleyes:
     
  19. crashsite

    crashsite Banned

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    Just leave the key in the ignition...

    Hey, Bryan. Can I borrow your car for the weekend...oh, yeah...and the furl card, too.

    But, getting back to the original topic of this thread. It sounds like the consensus is that (at least for the present) there is either no practical system for enriching gasoline with extra O2 and H or, if there is a way, that it's not known.

    It's just a guess but, I'm predicting that when this does get figured out, it will be via some somrt of catalyst that will aid in the extraction of the H atoms from the fuel.
     
  20. curjones01

    curjones01 New Member

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    It works

    Go to Yahoo groups Water Car or Hydroxy for info. These guys have the answeres and the details on how and why. I just built a hotsabi generator from the plans I found in one of the FILE sections. Do not pay for plans. Avoid the plans that call for you to use a glass jar for your generator or booster. Some of the things you mention here like the O2 sensor are covered . You need a device/gadget to tune the sensor. HHO gas will cause a lean reading when in fact it is richer . Check it out.
     
  21. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    It works? How does you MPG numbers change with it on or off ?

     

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