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incinerator

Discussion in 'Renewable Energy' started by Dr_Doggy, Dec 23, 2010.

  1. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    Got any more useful links about the blurb you posted about BrownOut? There's no technical details posted. The biggest question I have is what is the temperature difference required to get peak output, and what kind of area do they need? Probably mostly useful in industry, but it'd be neat to replace a cars alternator with such a device that drew it's power from waste heat in the catalytic converter and exhaust output.
     
  2. BrownOut

    BrownOut Banned

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    No, I just happened to stumble across that while I was reading the news. However, because of the trade jounals I read on a regular baises, I do know that energy harvesting is an active research area.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2011
  3. xmarkox

    xmarkox New Member

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    Poor Tcm

    TC

    I've been keeping up with your GTI project and I'm gathering the components to do it and I am very thankful for your contribution. I cannot believe the amount of effort you put into sharing with a ungrateful mob of #&^%s!!
    It seems every post you make even after putting in the disclaimers and safety advice there is always someone who has to pipe in with some Monkey Poo about how wrong the world is because of what you're doing. I just want you to know You are my hero and being a hero nowadays is tough. My last hero was Evel Kneivel. Any way I just want you to know that there are a hundred silent admirers for every one of these Monkey Poo protagonists.

    Keep up the good work. I'll let you know how My GTI is going when I have something REAL to tell you about.

    Until then Thanks and Have a good day.

    I hope maybe you are maybe a little twisted and enjoy tweaking these parental keepers of our "well being" and like the attention you seem to attract.

    They crack me up.

    Take care

    XmarkoX
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Thanks!
    I don't mind the mob of ungrateful #&^%s all that much any more. I find it sort of fun, in a twisted way, to yank the arm chair safety Nazi's chains from time to time plus I think the threads view counts speak well enough of the standing of my contributions for me. ;)

    I think I am too twisted to be a good Hero figure though. I have a horrible time following rules I don't agree with or with believing in what everyone else thinks is right because its popular. :D

    Although I do sort of think I am like Batman or Tesla sometimes, but more social and with far less personal issues. :p
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2011
  6. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    Pssst.. The term is 'anti-hero' I'd try to trump you but I'm younger, I've learned many things in my life, one of the most important is that raw intelligence doesn't mean anything if you can't do something with it. My highest respects are paid to the people that know how to DO, and that have done. You can quote all the theory in retaliation that you want, but you can't argue with a functioning device.
     
  7. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    They have a way around that though. Its usually the blind eye deaf ear treatment. If they refuse ever see it themselves or believe anything they do hear that is creditable about it they can still actively deny that its real let alone actually works.

    A NDSU professor taught me that one relating to my GTI system when I was their a number of years ago. Mine was too simple, too adaptable, and too functional compared to his sort of not all that functional one that had far too much research time and money invested into it to ever admit it could easily be outdone by my most basic GTI design.

    fortunately for everyone else its because of peoples attitudes like that I choose to make my work public domain just for anyone to copy, modify, or do what ever they want with for their own personal intentions. :D
     
  8. Dr_Doggy

    Dr_Doggy Well-Known Member

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  9. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Hauling others garbage and burning it is not worth the work and would provide no savings for me being I allready get all the free fuel I need in the form of wood shipping pallets and crates on top of all the wood I get around the farm as well which are all easy to haul work with.

    To make electricity I would need to put out a substantial upfront cost in both money and effort to design a reliable and safe boiler and compatible electrical generating system which is just not cost effective on the returns relating to what additional efforts I would have to put out. My boiler works well for what I need and thats good enough for me.

    It all comes down to cost, effort, and profit. If they do not balance each other out in a gainful way its not worth doing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2011
  10. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I saw a similar or likely same setup at what I would call a para science demonstration a few years ago in Bismarck ND that was put on by the Scam artist Dennis Lee, the hummingbird magnet motor guy.

    The trick behind that engine sort of working is simple. The hot exhaust gasses going out the engine pre heat and vaporize the fuel/air mystery mix to make it combustible. The water and whatever in the rest of the mix works like a simple liquid scrubber and takes out just enough of the combustion products to keep the loop going. For a few minutes anyway which is usually about as long as the demonstrations ever last. :(

    No real secrets or new science there. Just some basic chemistry and physics powering a near closed loop system just as long as the mystery liquid can absorb the exhaust byproducts and the fuel can remain vaporized or does not run out. Thats why you only ever see them use a few table spoons of fuel. Any more than that and the scrubber liquid would saturate and stop the system before the demonstration was over.

    Of course a bigger batch of mystery scrubber fluid and more fuel means more demonstration run time but not necessarily anything else. Thats mostly why the unloaded portable engine demonstration units only use a few cups and a full lawn mowing demonstration uses a gallon or two in a big jug and a cup or more of fuel. ;)
     
  11. Dr_Doggy

    Dr_Doggy Well-Known Member

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    I like the idea of it since its feasible but I havn't seen it on the market and the testimonies are kinda weak, so i kinda wonder.

    The inventor claims a plasma reaction which would be cool, but i doubt,

    But what if we put one of those things on your system, then an EXclusive co2 exhaust for compression to be reused
    and another exhaust exclusive for the other stable wastes to be cooled/cryo-compressed, these could also be buried at a tectonic line where it would go to the core to be broken down/also solving global warming, NOTE: this will recycle things like the CO but CO is an "incomplete reaction" and therefore fuel

    most importantly the "negative stigma value of pollution" would then go towards "fuel efficiency & regeneration"
     
  12. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I think you need to take a good deal of real science and physics classes and spend a considerable amount of time getting real hands on experience with those subjects before this goes any further.

    I am not one for fanciful day dreaming over unrealistic solutions to made up problems that don't actually exist. :(
     
  13. Dr_Doggy

    Dr_Doggy Well-Known Member

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  14. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    At idle around 250 - 300 F according to my stack temp gauge. At full burn around 500 - 800 F depending on whats burning.

    I figure I burn around 30+ tons of wood and mixed materials but what that adds up to in exhaust gas volume I don't know exactly.
    If it was figured to be around 80% carbon that would yield around 92 tons of CO2 plus another 20 - 30+ tons of other mixed gases and water vapor plus the roughly 1000 pounds of ash I get in one season. Just a loose guess though.
     
  15. Dr_Doggy

    Dr_Doggy Well-Known Member

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    nope, thats perfect.....

    so if 1 btu is delta(1lbs of water * 1F) and we assume that the average exhaust density is as dense as water that makes 158.4 *10^6 bTu's lost per year, with the heat in your exhausts

    i dunno if this second part is true:

    that equals 1.67*10^11 joules, there are 31.5*10^6 seconds in a year so that = 5301joules/sec lost
    so thats 5Kw of energy you are losing per sec.......?

    so direct heat transfer is 90% efficient? Carnot cycle is 30% eficient, and the peltier effects are 6%of the carnot eficiency?
     
  16. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    there is more to it than that. I only run it for roughly 5 months a year and the peak burn rate is only going 4 hours a day at most. The rest of the time its at idle.

    Also if my exhaust gasses where as dense as water they would not rise up the stack and float away!

    Your equations need more refining but at least you show you are reading up on things now!:)

    As far as my tests have shown given a specific volume of a known wood and knowing the overall thermal mass of my system the idle efficiency is around 96% or better and the peak burn rate is about 80% - 85% on average.
    I originally had the design running around 95% at high burn rate but it caused severe creosote and condensation problems in the stack and flues. I purposely had to redesign the flues and increase the stack size in order to reduce the burning efficiency at full burn in order to keep the system from plugging up.
     
  17. Dr_Doggy

    Dr_Doggy Well-Known Member

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    reduce the stack size? how would that effect burning ratios(efficiency)?

    also how do you feed it air, is it like a breather in a fireplace, or is it a closed compression system?

    what would you say to a "swirl system stack" that would force the lighter molecules to the center of the stack so the soot would travel to the center where it couldn't condense on the walls(similar to a centrifuge), ?

    technology reference: Google Image Result for http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=97466&stc=1&d=1248824727
     
  18. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    A smaller stack chokes off the burn rate at some point. I originally had built it with a 6 inch stack but had to use a power drat system to get enough flow though it and even then it would soot up too much too often. I changed it over to a 8 inch stainless steel one when I did the flue redesign a few years ago and now I do not need a power draft system in the stack.

    For air I use two squirrel cage blowers. One blows air in from under the fire at about 100 CFM and the other blows air over the fire from the front door at around 250 CFM if I am remembering there specs number right. The dual draft system gives it a good clean burn that way plus solved a lot of flame control and burning efficiency problems that the old design had with a single bottom draft and power stack draft system.

    I will try and get you some pictures of the present design if the weather is nice while I am out tomorrow.
     
  19. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Here are the pictures.
    The first one is the flues looking at them from the front through the clean out door. The combustion gases come up in the back of the lower one travel to the front do a 180 degree turn and go to the back of the top one and up the stack.
    DCP02344.JPG

    This is the fire box. It is 24 inch's square by 54 inches long.
    DCP02345.JPG

    These are typical of the pallets I normally burn. They are the common 40" x 48" and 42" x 48" hardwood type.
    DCP02347.JPG

    This is the door draft blower that blows the draft air in over the front and top of the fire.
    DCP02348.JPG

    These are the pallets startling to burn and on the right side you can see some of the holes that the door draft air blows out of. They go all the way around the outer part of the inside of the door.
    DCP02350.JPG

    These is the two mechanical gages that read the stack temp and water jacket temp.
    DCP02346.JPG

    This is the digital controller I designed for it.
    DCP01218.JPG

    Although the design itself does not look all that complex the overall work behind it took a good deal of research and trial and error testing to develop. Its a square body design with an open system so that it can not build up pressure. My insurance company classifies that as a open hot water heater not a boiler so I don't pay any additional insurance fees for having it.
     
  20. Dr_Doggy

    Dr_Doggy Well-Known Member

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    that is and the boiler get heat out of the flues? still if there is 300deg at the stack isnt that all leakage energy(the heat in the smoke(exhaust))

    in the link i posted above, it is a vortex tube diagram, it is currently used for spot weld tech, its theory is that it takes in an ambient temperature and with a forced flow(compression) it creates a delta between temperatures on the outputs(ie it gets hot on one side and cold on the other), if we were to take one of these and replace the stack, it would do the same with the squirrel pressure, create a delta hot and cold side(in the system ambient would be 500deg, while hotside goes up 100deg, cold side goes down 100deg. we could then feedback the boosted temp back in to the collector(boiler) or to combustion chamber, and feed out the cold side out the stack, this is not to replace a flew, but to feedback the losses, also i would fatten up the chamber up a bit(diameter) as a collector for the cooled sooting....... how would you feel about that(in theory!)?

    also i was reading that soot is usually a hydrocarbon compound, which means incomplete reactions, feeding it back to chamber with additional O2 should ignite to CO2 +energy(may need higher temp to "spark"),,, just a thought?
     
  21. atferrari

    atferrari Well-Known Member

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    Burning garbage

    I did not read the full thread.

    In our city, all buildings were built with burners for garbage. You cannot imagine the pollution they created!

    Some twenty years ago they were banned and garbage is now sent to landfills. While we have replaced one problem with another, I have to admit that the smog which was more than evident has disappeared.

    Even in vessels it has been made illegal to burn any kind of garbage even in open seas.
     

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