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ICD2 Compatable + PCB layout

Discussion in 'Microcontrollers' started by William At MyBlueRoom, Jun 29, 2006.

  1. William At MyBlueRoom

    William At MyBlueRoom New Member

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    ICD2 Compatible + PCB layout

    Just finished my first PCB layout. Not sure what to export in the Gerber plot and drill data. Heres the schematic & layout. What is the proper method to post a PCB layout?
     

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    Last edited: Jun 29, 2006
  2. zkt_PiratesDen

    zkt_PiratesDen New Member

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    you might find yhis useful
    havernt checked this out, but www.4pcb.com/hotwater is offering $500 off your pcb order or orders under $500 are free. includes shipping. probably doesnt include gerber file checks. but hell, who makes mistakes anyway
    also, last time I talked to them panelizaton was ok

    zkt
     
  3. Mike - K8LH

    Mike - K8LH Well-Known Member

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    Looks nice Bill.

    Why are you usin' that big '877 instead of an '876 or '876A? You can come up with a much smaller board using an '876/A (I also install 1/8th watt resister A2D dividers and MAX232A 100-nf caps in the open area of the machined sockets underneath the ICs).

    Why are you omitting Target VDD switching capability? Are you sure you're never going to use VDD coming from the target board?

    Mike
     

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    Last edited: Jun 30, 2006
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Mike - K8LH

    Mike - K8LH Well-Known Member

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    A question please?

    When I do use MAX232 type devices I use something like the MAX232A, MAX202, or ST202 devices which accept the microminiature 0.1-uf (100nf) monolythic caps'. Have you tried these and does your voltage multiplier circuit work with them?

    Mike
     

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    Last edited: Jun 29, 2006
  6. Mike - K8LH

    Mike - K8LH Well-Known Member

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    One last suggestion.

    If you stick with those electrolytic caps', Randy at Glitchbuster.com has those incredibly small Panasonic 1-uf electrolytic caps' for MAX232 circuits (9 cents each).

    Mike
    [​IMG]
     
  7. William At MyBlueRoom

    William At MyBlueRoom New Member

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    Hi Mike, always good to hear from you.

    Answers:
    The 16F877 is in easy supply here in Toronto, it's also useable in the USB 18F4550 version of the ICD2 (very fast) I've got the 18F4550 but can figure out what firmware or driver to use when I connect it.

    You can power the programmer from your target, I've got the diodes across the 7805 so you wont damage it.

    As for stuffing bits under the CPU (inside the socket) next time, I do it all the time; not sure if it's standard practice.

    The bigger caps give it the power it needs, after looking through the maxim voltage doubler app notes. The cheap max232 parts work best. It appears to be faster than my PICStart Plus...

    I love those baby caps, I'm trying to get the local retailers to stock 10s & 1s I can get 4.7s though.

    I wonder if a 20MHz resonator would work?
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2006
  8. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    Doing it by hand using toggle switches would probably be faster than the PICStart Plus, it's the worlds slowest PIC programmer - so poorly written it's unbelievable!.The reason is the stupid way it programmes the entire memory, even for just a couple of bytes - making it always slow.

    For the same reason, WinPicProg was (and may still be?) the fastest, as it always only programmed the address space used - and later versions even skipped single blank bytes in the used address space!.
     
  9. Pommie

    Pommie Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    My PicStart+ only programs the used locations. It is still pretty slow, to program a 16f88 upto location 0xa80 takes 55 seconds as compared to WinPic with a JDM type programmer taking 11. I used it when I had problems with the JDM programmer, now I only use it for devices not supported by the JDM.

    Mike.
     
  10. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    Are you sure it's not programming all of the space at that? (plus some chips for your neighbours as well!), 55 seconds is an incredibly long time! - certainly the older versions of the Plus wrote ALL the memory regardless of how much you wanted. What makes you think your's doesn't?.

    An old EPROM PIC (like the 16C84) requires roughly a 10mS programming delay, in actual tests you may be able to do it faster (I've often used as low as 7mS, but 10mS is the spec). So 1K of space should take just over 10 seconds (10mSx1024). So your 55 seconds would suggest 5.5K of space?, although (as suggested) the PICStart+ is incedibly slow!. More modern PIC's normally have a shorter programming delay, and the proper FLASH ones also program more than one word at a time.

    As the Plus is so slow anyway, 55 seconds sounds about right for programming the full 4K of the 16F88.
     
  11. Pommie

    Pommie Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    MPLAB displays a count in the status bar and after programming it displays,

    PICSTART Program\Verify Report
    01-Jul-2006, 00:48:00
    Device Type: PIC16F88
    Address Range 0-a8f
    Programming/Verification completed successfully!

    Mike.
     
  12. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    I don't see where that says it hasn't written all the memory space?, that might just be a figure that it displays after verification? - a count of non blank words.

    Of course later versions of MPLAB/PICStart+ might not program blank words, but if not?, then what's it doing for all that time?.
     
  13. Pommie

    Pommie Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Perhaps I should have explained better. When I said "MPLAB displays a count in the status bar" I should have added that the count starts at 00 and (slowly) increases to 0xa8f before starting the verify.

    Mike.
     
  14. William At MyBlueRoom

    William At MyBlueRoom New Member

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    Just as a challenge I've redrawn my Inchworm ICD2 clone to a single sided PCB. It's 115mm x 62mm
    I've got to double check the layout so DON'T make one yet.

    I'll try to etch it myself to test.

    Seems single sided PCBs are very cheap compared to multilayer.
     

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  15. Mike - K8LH

    Mike - K8LH Well-Known Member

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    Forgot to answer this before.

    Target VDD switching is not a mechanism for powering the ICD2 from VDD on the Target board. Rather, it's an option to power the Target board with VDD from the ICD2. You have VDD from the ICD2 hardwired to the Target board in your circuit, which is the same way Lothar did it in his design.

    I included the Target VDD switching circuitry in my design because I mistakenly thought the ICD2 might be 'smart' enough to power up and power down the target board and use "vpp first" and "vdd first" methods for placing the target device into high-voltage program verify mode but I was wrong. It seems VDD is "always on" wether you use ICD2 controlled target VDD switching or a hardwired scheme. So, I suspect there probably isn't really any advantage to ICD2 controlled Target VDD switching.

    Regards, Mike
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2006
  16. mramos1

    mramos1 Active Member

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    William: This is this a microchip ICD2 clone, programming and ICD? If so, yell when you verify it. I have convinced myself to build one. Have to find the 877. I have all the other parts :)

    Please let me know. Does it work with the microchip bootloader as well?
     
  17. William At MyBlueRoom

    William At MyBlueRoom New Member

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    Yes it's a real very basic compatible, it's about as simple as I could design it based on Lothars design. It's works and works well. As a programmer it's fast and supports scads of PICs, as a debugger it can be slow but better than nothing...

    I've used the transistor outputs as they don't require the higher voltage that Lothars LM358 version. I've also made it so you can power it from your projects 5V. (The VPP is generated by the MAX232 with some big 10uf caps) I've used the TI 232 (cheap) and it works fine with the 10uf, I'll drop in different chips to test. You could probably use smaller caps like 4.7uf if you don't have 10uf, the filter cap should keep ripple low.

    The Microchip ICD2 has many more features like USB, programmable VPP power and switched power. Buffered I/O etc.

    When used with MPLABs BL10101.HEX it behaves like the real thing, it will download new firmware as needed.

    Mike, K8LH has mentioned that there's a 16F877A version of the bootloader, I've not tried it yet (don't have an A version handy)

    I've attached a picture of the single sided version, I'll post the Gerber & drill data on my site in the next day or two. Just tweeking it.
     

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    Last edited: Jul 2, 2006
  18. mramos1

    mramos1 Active Member

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    I will see if Eagle will import gerber. Or if you have you a trace version without the parts overlayed, I can size it in photoshop and print to paper and etch it..
     
  19. Mike - K8LH

    Mike - K8LH Well-Known Member

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    I should mention it's perfectly acceptable to use 2N3904 and 2N3096 transistors on the Stolz' clone, instead of the BC558B and BC548B transistors. They seem to be a bit more common on this side of the pond (that's what I have installed on mine).

    Have fun. Regards, Mike
     
  20. mramos1

    mramos1 Active Member

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    That is what I was gonna do :) Thanks Mike. I was gonna ask that, then I went, this is not super high speed so I will just use them.
     
  21. William At MyBlueRoom

    William At MyBlueRoom New Member

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    Here's the final (at least it's the one for the first run of PCBs)

    I'm just updating http://www.myblueroom.com and adding a link with the Gerber & Drill info.
     

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