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Hydroxy gas

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by Kirkg, Jul 6, 2007.

  1. Kirkg

    Kirkg New Member

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    Hydroxy gas (Brown's gas) is made by passing water between stainless steel plates and pulsing it with DC current. Most research indicates that the most efficient electrolysis happens at the resonance frequency of water, which is reported at approximately 42KHz. I have constructed a cell out of ss and need a circuit. There are many published circuits, but it is hard for the layman (me) to pick and build the right one. Most researchers say the voltage does the work in the right circuit. Anyone want to try helping this electronic dunce get a circuit built? I will build a cell (not easy) for the right researcher and we can experiment together. Kirkg
     
  2. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    Well that's not true, water's lowest resonance is around 28GHz (I can't recall the exact figure) which is a lot higher than you can produce using conventional components like transistors, capacitors and resistors.
     
  3. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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    Doesn't a microwave oven have something to do with water molecules and frequency? Perhaps you could gut an old microwave... :) Just kidding, it's instant death underneath the cover. I replaced my old oven about a month ago, and still haven't the courage to bust it open.
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. chemelec

    chemelec Well-Known Member

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    I Don't Believe EITHER Of these.
    Definately Not 42 Khz. Most of these guys Use Inductors and are Obtaining a Resonance in the Inductor, Not the water.

    And at 28 GHz, it would be next to impossible to pass that current through the water. You would need a Very Unusual Wave Guide.

    But Resonance is Typically a function of "Mass, Density and Volume". So I really doubt there is a Specific resonant frequency for water.

    And if there is, Its Probably Sub-Audio. (Far Below 20 Hz, probably far below 1 Hz.)
     
  6. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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  7. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I think Hero999 is refering to the rotational/translational absorptions of water in the far infrared.

    See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microwave_oven

    Microwave heating essentially is frictional. Rotational and translational transitions are at higher frequencies; although, I could not find quickly a specific reference to the lowest rotational/translational transition for water in the condensed phase. It does absorb IR pretty strongly at 300 GHz (1 mm). Wikipedia reports the absorption at 20GHz is due to a rotational transition in the gas phase.

    The OP seems to be talking about the alignment of water dipoles in an electric field. For that, you would need to know the strength of the field (by analogy to NMR) to estimate the energy needed. Unfortunately, so much bunk pops up on a Google search that one would have to be more dedicated than I am to finding the real answer. John
     
  8. ClydeCrashKop

    ClydeCrashKop Well-Known Member

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  9. Kirkg

    Kirkg New Member

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    Hydroxy gas with pulsed DC current

    Thanks for the input. Yes, most interesting the resonance of molecules. I was thinking on a more mundane level. People are getting very efficient electrolysis by pulsing DC in a cell. The observed frequency of high production seems to be about 42KHz with a perfect square wave. With or without inductors, and a LRC resonance circuit, I don't know. I would sincerely like help testing different circuits, and have a budget with which to do it. I would like to hook up with a super Geek who would find this fun. Isn't a pulsing DC circuit with MOSFETs and about 12V and 200 amp maximum within the realm of possibility? The water is positively fed through the cell so it won't heat.
     
  10. chemelec

    chemelec Well-Known Member

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    200 AMPS, NOT VERY LIKELY.

    Getting that amount of Current would be Difficult and You will create too Much Heat.
    20 Amps or Maybe 30 in a car is practical.

    I have also NEVER seen any Resonant circuit for this, WITHOUT INDUCTORS.
     
  11. skeeterb

    skeeterb Member

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    I myself post on http://www.overunity.com. I have attached a circuit diagram of an improved version of the circuit supposedly designed by Stanley Meyer. It pulses the the power input at different rates using a 555 timer IC. Different settings like Frequency and Mark/Space are changable by 10K Pots. I'm not sure of the portion of the circuit on the left of the circuit. It is another part of the settings, I guess. But see what you think and try it.
     

    Attached Files:

  12. chemelec

    chemelec Well-Known Member

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    It does no better than DC.
     
  13. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The "right" side provides the basic pulse frequency. The "left side" turns that pulse train on and off (i.e., modulates it). Is that what you are not sure of, or was it something else? John
     
  14. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    Microwaves use 2.45GHz as it achieves the optimum skin depth of penetration, is a convenient wavelength for the wave guides in the oven and is licence free. It has absolutely nothing to do with the resonance of water molecules which is a very common myth.
     
  15. Kirkg

    Kirkg New Member

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    Hydroxy heat formation at 200 amps

    For Chemelec; the cell has positive water flow, and can be up to 10 gallons per minute, that should cool the 15 or so horsepower. For Skeeterb; good, let's get building. I need help buying and soldering. Practical stuff so a non electronics guy could do it. The furthest I have progressed is to a Radio Shack trainer kit. The successful application I reviewed had 6 MOSFETS!!!
     
  16. Kirkg

    Kirkg New Member

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    Resonant circuit

    Chemelec; I forgot to address your statement. A resonant circuit is in an LRC configuration, I get that. But for the best pulse frequency of water we are agreed that we are in unknown territory. So....without an inductor can the circuit force a pulse frequency on the cell? I don't know, and believe me, I am humble because if it doesn't take nuts and bolts to hold it together, I am a newbie.
     
  17. Glyph

    Glyph New Member

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    Just a quick question: what's the efficiency when you run electrolysis with straight DC current and what is the improvement when you run it on pulse?
     
  18. chemelec

    chemelec Well-Known Member

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    I'm Not Sure How you Plan to get that 10 Gallon Water Flow?

    And Water Without any Additives is only Slightly Conductive. So with Plain Water you will have almost no current flow.

    Most of these cells have a large amount of Potassium Hydroxide added to Decrease the Resistance of the cell to get Less than 2 Volts per cell for best Efficiency.

    That Amount of Caustic, Potassium Hydroxide is Not Something I would want in my Vehicle, Never mind Pumping 10 Gallons of it.

    As to an Inductor, that is an LRC circuit.
    All Inductors Have Resistance and Capacitance without the need for any added, IN THIS Application.
    And its NOT Unknown Territory, or at least not to me.

    VERY POOR EFFENCY, Maybe 10% Either way.
    Mostly the PWM Just Controls Current, Unless you Believe in the RESONANCE.
    I have yet to really Find it or Any real Improvement with these resonant Circuits.

    Using this Hydrogen Generation in a Moderate amount, it is Possible to Improve you MPG.
    But you also need to Correct for the 02 Sensor on Newer Vehicles or you run your motor really lean.
     
  19. Kirkg

    Kirkg New Member

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    Glyph; the reported efficiency of straight DC electrolysis, 1.4 V is reported to be about 62% best case. Stan Meyer, Andrija Puharich, and others have reported over 100% efficency. Puharich paid a lot of money to get his method certified by a reputable lab. For Chemelec; 10 gallons per minute water flow in a boat is a piece of cake, in a stationary generator likewise. In a car, no way. My cell, with good 316ss, spaced at .022", and properly sand-blasted pulls 30amps 12V with plain tap water. Throw out the modern stuff, use an old car (with a newly rebuilt engine), and get the Hydroxy to it, then restrict the petroleum, and see how far you can go on a gallon of gas. There are a lot of products on the market.
     
  20. Kirkg

    Kirkg New Member

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    Thanks for the circuit Skeeterb

    I printed that circuit. Now I need a parts list, and some dummy explanations!!! Old guys can learn new tricks.
     
  21. Oznog

    Oznog Active Member

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    They lied about getting >100%, and there are endless products that people will sell you that will never work.

    "Hydroxy" gas- "Brown's Gas"- has often been assigned many magical properties that have never been demonstrated in any real sense. Some claim it's made of monatomic hydrogen (H) instead of H2 which it isn't (H always links up into H2 immediately at room temp even if you did make it). Sometimes they like to act incredulous and say "the scientists said it would never do this, we don't know why, but it's doing it!" (no independent, qualified observer ever verifying this). In reality it's just H2 and O2 and can be burned to produce H2O again and produce heat, but there's large losses involved and far larger losses involved in getting that heat to turn into engine HP you can use.

    With a huge generator, this might take 10KW of engine power that would have gone to the wheels, make chemical energy in the form of H2 and O2 at 60% efficiency for a rate of 6KW, and then adding that to the intake stream could be like 20% efficient at burning it to make engine output so you get an extra 1.2KW of engine torque out of the drive shaft. But the genny's loading down the engine at 10KW, so all this does is make a net loss of 8.8KW and a corresponding drop in MPG.
     

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