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Fair or Not

Discussion in 'Members Lounge' started by Little Ghostman, Apr 20, 2017.

  1. JoeJester

    JoeJester Active Member

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    Musicmanager,

    I wonder if you could have cited it they way we cite "internet stuff" these days... Where did you retrieve the book. It might have shocked him if you did.

    The common ones used by the universities here is Modern Language Association (MLA), American Psychological Association (APA), and Chicago Manual of Style. University of Purdue's website provides additional information.
     
  2. Musicmanager

    Musicmanager Active Member

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    Hi JJ

    Yes, that might have helped, although this was a very long time ago when the internet was only on the fantasy pages of kids comic books. I think their main disagreement was that I had not demonstrated any significant attempt to identify the author, backed up by the fact that at one point he was sitting across the table from me !

    However, at the time Zimbabwe was a very volatile area politically; I remember some months after I had returned to the UK watching the 10 O' clock news with pictures of a group of activists trying to burn down the building I had been living and working in;

    I believe these days in the UK a new university entrant is given some quite clear and concise instruction about the conventions of formal presentation which are much less open to interpretation and misunderstanding.

    My point to LG was that whilst they can be seen as pedantic, 'over the top' and a definite PITA they are not open to arbitration.

    S
     
  3. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I also found out that different classes within the same university here, have different preferences to which style is used. I wonder if the exit from the EU will further confuse things? The university I am interested in, seems to mainly go with the American system. But I am told depending on the degree subject, things may change.

    I looked at some papers from two people, both would be my lecturers for the same subject. Both reference differently in the papers they wrote....Except for two where they co author. So absolute minefield!

    Also for other reasons I had to speak with the admissions tutor yesterday, one comment that surprised me was taking a higher degree. I mentioned what path would be best for a PhD, really surprised to hear a PhD " Closes as many doors, as it opens".
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. JoeJester

    JoeJester Active Member

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    Britain's exit from the EU shouldn't affect someone using the American System, whatever that is.
     
  6. KeepItSimpleStupid

    KeepItSimpleStupid Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    1st comment.

    How do you get yourself in these predicaments? Is someone jealous? It's probably the same sort of stuff that would happen in the workplace. Someone gets someone in trouble for personnel gain. Don't you hat it when you help someone and they also win a prize, but no mention of your involvement? This was school too.

    2nd comment
    Rule #1: The boss is always right
    Rule #2: If the boss is wrong, see rule #1

    3rd comment - Fair use


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

    4th comment
    The thing that perplexes me is that you didn't get something that someone else was not supposed to have for that person because they asked you to get it for them. You lent the "same magazine" for someone to read. The problem is "management" can't distinguish the difference, so you got "framed". I know that well.

    5th comment
    Sounds like a pornography law. It's illegal to possess S6 material by S5 students in your jurisdiction (school), but is it written that way?
     
  7. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Hi Joe.

    I didnt write that well, so here is a better explanation.

    I cant remember the names of the different formats used when you do a bibliography, one 'style' is apparently favoured by most universities in America (I think its named after one). So over here at my school, its lazilly called the American system.

    Also over here the style used is dependent upon the course tutor, so you can be using 2 or more different styles at the same university. Music Man is likely to know a huge amount more than I about this, its just something we are told to be aware of. Academies are a odd kind of set up, I wont even try and explain how that works :D, but roughly in my own case, it means a School. college and university are linked. So our partner institutions allow the students access to certain resources, one of these is the library system. For us as pupils this means we get access to journals, this isnt something the school could ever afford on its own.

    To Answer Kiss's question............ I dont know how many (if any) fall foul of this at my school, normally in my year group it isnt expected for us to do bibliographies. Its mainly for those in the year above me, those who are doing a 4 year university course, the first of which they elect to do at school. I work on the principle that, going the extra mile, not only gives me practice but also makes my work stand out more. I am not actually naturally academic, so I will grab the extra point where ever I see one.

    I am doing some advanced higher s, it isnt however that normal at my particular school. So those of us that do things like bibliographies, tend to stand out. This is especially so when your doing bibliographies in a class that dosnt require them. I dont know how the system works precisely, but the university pays a fee to publishers for X number of pupils. I would think that my friend would have been expected to pay the £35, for the article because he isnt doing ANY higher exams this year.

    So strictly speaking he dosnt have any access to the advanced system, if he wants to use a paper then he would be expected to pay for it. Looking back, and after hearing Music Man give more info, I was a bit stupid. I kind of assumed that the uni or school had unlimited access, I did think that the restrictions were mainly a school system limitation. It didnt occur to me it was more a 'money' thing or the number of access accounts was limited due to financial reasons. It might not be (I still dont understand how its done!!), I was aware that he didnt have access to papers of the library system. My real mistake was in using my school account, had I of used pirate sources for the paper then we would both be in the clear.

    Basically when asked we both told the truth, had he of said he paid for it from home, then in all honesty the school couldnt do anything. But we didnt really understand the system or how serious its taken.

    So why does it happen to me?? Good question.
    I dont tend to read the small print, and even when I do I tend to do what I feel is right or fair. I am learning fast that fair, is a bit like the Easter Bunny, it exists only in the mind of the young and stupid. The easy option would be to assume I was always doing something wrong, and cover myself ready for being caught. But I tend to have good intentions, and I am uncomfortable covering my tracks to get away with things. I prefer to just own up if I am in the wrong.

    As to question 4.

    I guess this is the bit that really caught us out, in a nutshell he was supposed to pay for the paper. He dosnt have access to them from the school system, so I guess the publisher didnt get £35 they would of got, had he paid for it at home. The school/Uni dosnt pay for him to have access, so in a way its seen as stealing. After Music Man had given the information, I did go back and ask some questions. He is 100% correct, published papers from Journals have there own set of rules! Totally unique to most other areas of life, I would think all the Academics here are well aware of the nuances of the system. But from Music Mangers post I get the impression, alot of people get caught out when you first delve into the system.

    Looking deeper into it, Journals are a strange beast. Nothing is really 100% clear cut, for example a well used and known site (Pub Med), I use links from there on here. Many of the papers are put on the site from the papers Authors. You can often see the account they come from, what I didnt know however. Some of those papers, strictly speaking shouldnt be freely available on that site. I have no idea if the Authors get any agro or not, but I do know that 99% of the time no one says anything to PubMed for having the paper freely available on the site. It isnt a parite site, its a legit academic resource. But often if I find a paper I want and cant get from school, I find it on the publishers site, I then copy the index number and search on sites like Pub Med. Often you can find the paper free on Pub Med!! But if you get it from the publisher you pay alot for it.

    The main difference with Pub Med and others is, its a site for sharing research and scientific interests. It has interests groups etc, for example I am a member of the yeast group amongst others :D. I think your supposed to have published to be a member of the site, I joined and uploaded some non published stuff I have done. I was then excepted as a group member. The public can also use the site, but you dont get the same benefits. So in short....... Journals have a unique set of rules, made worse by the strange system of open access!!

    I mainly get caught out through stupidity, or my lack of willingness to cover my a#s! Dosnt help that my inbuilt sense of fairness dosnt match alot of the rules in life :D. I used to get in alot of trouble on here, mainly because I saw some things as unfair. The smart thing would of been to keep my mouth shut, but I find that really hard if I feel I am right. Slowly however, I am learning what is fair, isnt always the same as what is right! So I tend to just let alot of it go, as Kiss says the boss is always right, even if he is a muppet. I was against alot of the new rules, many still dont make much sense to me. But what they have done, is give a clear framework. So dosnt matter much what I think of them, or if they fair, all you got to do is follow them.

    Anyway I have drifted again off topic :D.

    One day I will learn the system names of bibliographies! It boils down to what the course tutors wants, rather than an institution setting on a certain system, although alot of courses tend to follow the 'norm' for that institution. To make it a little harder...... Everything has a different way to do it, so books are done differently from other sources, even within the same system! That was the bit that caught Music manager out, put the date in the wrong place on a bibliography and its treated as if you hadnt referenced it!!! Same as the strange concept of Et al, I used to list all authors of a paper. Then I discovered the wonderful Et al, so I put the main Author then simply Et al (and others) :D Job done!

    The only time I dont is for books like TAOE, I kind of feel like both Authors deserve to be referenced. Same with people like Vogel and the Fischers, they are in a league of there own. Even though really Vogel simply copied alot of work down, I hadnt realised he didnt actually do many of the experiments!! Same with Braeur! A bit like Colin, he just collected others work and put it together, although some of it is his work.


    Oh and my latest Academic crime?? I missed the bit of info that said double space lines, so had an entire paper marked as not being done!! All because the lines did not have double spacing like the sheet asked for!! 0 marks for a great bit of work, because I didnt pay attention. I filed that under stupidity, although strictly speaking I didnt miss the instruction, I read the details a while before I did the actual work. I then just forgot about the double line thing, its not common in my class to be asked for double spacing, but it does crop up :D. Not too bothered about it, its for Inorganic Chemistry. I am taking Organic Chemistry next year and Dropping Inorganic anyway, it clashes with another subject, and I prefer Organic Chemistry.
     
  8. throbscottle

    throbscottle Well-Known Member

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    You remind me of when I did my O levels and CSE's. We had English literature and English language exams. I had to sign a piece of paper saying what exams I was doing. I was completely convinced I wasn't doing one of these exams, swore blind I was only doing one of them. So they produced the piece of paper that I didn't even remember seeing, let alone signing, and that one had to be paid for because of my non-attendance.

    As to the other English exam, which I did know I was supposed to be doing, they had some weird system on the paper where you had to say which question you were answering, and write the appropriate answer. So what did I go and do? I wrote a really good answer, to a different question to the one I said I was answering. So I got a U and an F between those two exams. I put it down to being dyslexic, though it was undiagnosed. Ironic how it's never had much effect on my literacy, just my ability to use the system that tests it.
     
  9. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    They changed the exams up here the year I moved up, I think they are going to change again. Coming from the English exam system, I found it really hard to get used to the system up here. I was late to an exam last year by 10 mins, they changed the room a couple of hours before the exam. By the time I found out, I was already the other side of the school! So that got me locked out of the exam. I had to do a resit for it, which was a different paper. This year I am trying to remain calm, last year nerves hit me really hard.
     
  10. throbscottle

    throbscottle Well-Known Member

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    Sucks worse than a vampire in a blood bank...
     
  11. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Thats a better expression than the one my dad used to use :D, something about a dockside and a lady that works......I cant remember it now ;).
     
  12. JoeJester

    JoeJester Active Member

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    trollop might be a word ....
     
  13. Little Ghostman

    Little Ghostman Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Trollop is something my gran used to say, it still cracks me up and I have no idea why :D
     

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