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electronic rust protection for cars

Discussion in 'Electronic Projects Design/Ideas/Reviews' started by rayr5, Feb 12, 2005.

  1. rayr5

    rayr5 New Member

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    hello all.

    can anybody help me build a do it yourself project such as an electronic rust protection for cars?

    thank you.
     
  2. evandude

    evandude New Member

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    exactly how does one prevent rust using electricity?
     
  3. tansis

    tansis New Member

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    It has been known for over 100 years that electricity plays a large part in most forms of corrosion and it is also known that electricity can be used to prevent corrosion. Some of the first examples of this involved several zinc blocks being fixed in electrical contact with copper sheeting on boats. The corrosion of the more reactive metal (zinc) generates an excess of electrons that travel to the less reactive metal (copper) where these electrons react with the air forming the second half of the reaction. Essentially, what happens is the less reactive metal doesn’t corrode because it is instead supplying the more reactive metal with the oxygen it needs to corrode. This practise of using sacrificial anodes to prevent corrosion became known as cathodic protection.

    ERPS takes advantage of a relatively recent development in the field of corrosion prevention. The key to the ERPS System is that the prevention process works by turning the entire car into one half of a capacitor. By charging the Coupler, a small conductive plate placed onto the paintwork, up to a high positive voltage relative to the car, high concentrations of electrons become attracted to the coupler on the underside of the paint. This high concentration of electrons over time causes the whole car to become covered by a layer of electrons that are held static by the paintwork preventing the charge from leaking away. This is similar to the way a magnet placed on steel will magnetise the surrounding area. Electrostatic experiments from over two hundred years ago showed that if a metal and an insulator or dielectric are in contact then the two can hold opposing charges for several months. With the Capacitive Coupling system the paint takes the role of the dielectric, preventing the charge induced by the coupler from leaking away, allowing the charge to be spread throughout the car.

    The layer of electrons on the surface of the metal prevents corrosion by lowering the metals voltage potential. This lower voltage potential means the metal becomes less reactive and therefore less likely to corrode. Unlike cathodic protection, the Capacitive Coupling system is almost completely static and therefore no significant currents are required to prevent corrosion. And although the system relies on static electricity, the voltage stored on the paint is equal to and opposite of the voltage stored on the metal surface, so the combined voltage of the system will never discharge in a spark.

    The Capacitive Coupling system is dependent on a dielectric coating of some sort to be effective. In most cases this will be paint. Where metal surfaces are left bare there will be a surface coating of ferric oxide form, as until this coating occurs no charge can hold on the metal surface. The ferric oxide is an insulator and therefore acts as a dielectric. The System will not prevent rust stains forming on porous paint because the porous paint is not an adequate dielectric, and so a layer of oxidation forms that will tend to run after it has rained, but if left this will not proceed to rust perforation. Still, rust stains are unsightly so in most cases we would recommend a paint sealant or good quality polish to seal the paint and eliminate the problem.

    As can be seen from the above paragraphs, a good quality coating is essential to maximise the protection and prevention offered by the electronic system. Most vehicles have excellent exterior paintwork and adequate interior coverage to ensure effective electronic protection.

    With older vehicles, the paint becomes thin and porous as mentioned above and so the harmful layers of salt, acid and moisture are allowed through to the metal beneath. With a vehicle of this description the paint must be sealed to get the full effect of the ERPS unit.
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. evandude

    evandude New Member

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    wow. in that case, i'd be interested in seeing some circuits and/or working examples of that too...
     
  6. goodpickles

    goodpickles New Member

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    When I read the first post I thought someone must have been reading too much science fiction....But now I see it is actually possible in theory. I would also be interested in seeing some diagrams
     
  7. zevon8

    zevon8 New Member

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    As an anecdotal story, I was involved with an engineering firm ( some almost 20 years ago ) that was enlisted to produce such a device. Several different prototypes were produced, using different technologies, and were given to the companiy that hired the firm. After testing, the government branch of consumer and commercial affairs became involved over complaints of poor/no results, and legal actions were bandied about. The product never went to market.

    The technology can work, but the environment in which a vehicle exists works faster to produce rust than the methods used to prevent the end result, rust. It is interesting to note that, in order for the system to work well, the maintenance required ( preventing exposed metal, keeping the paint intact, etc, ) will prevent rust on its own, without adding any electronics into the mix. Sorta catch 22 if you ask me.

    Not looking for an argument, just pointing out that this method has been tried on and off for many years, and never took off because of the poor results obtained. The only application that seems to get any effort is in the salt water marine field, on oil rigs and simlar large ocean going structures.
     
  8. Oznog

    Oznog Active Member

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    I don't see any possibility this could work.

    Sacrificial anode protection is quite effective, but only when the anode and structure are immersed in an electrolyte (water). Unless you're planning to submerge your car, you cannot benefit.

    This thing about embedding electrons in paint... yeah right. Well, you can certainly embed electrons in an insulator, but you need a pretty effective insulator (acrylic, nylon, etc) and I don't expect paint to be too great at this. Nor am I clear on how a static charge without a current path (as in an electrolyte) is going to protect you.

    The simple flaw here is that if your paint isn't porous and there is no exposed metal, there isn't any rust problem to "cure" so they're not even claiming anything useful. Rust doesn't form from the metal underneath and destroy the paint from below. UV, oxidation, or pinholes from a poor paint job have to compromise the paint to get to the metal first.

    I categorize it with the "fuel magnets".
     
  9. pike

    pike Member

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    I Have seen multiple claims over the years that this product of a sort would work, and yet none of them have been able to prove it, i dont believe in them and neither should you guys...

    wth is a fuel magnet?? :?
     
  10. Oznog

    Oznog Active Member

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    Haven't seen the fuel magnet? It's an old classic snake oil, it's a magnet you strap onto the fuel line and it "polarizes" the fuel molecules so it gets you a bunch more gas mileage for no adequately explained reason (the "FuelSaver" tm).

    A relative newcomer on the market is the Fuel Tornado, which is supposed to somehow make it work better by twisting the air in the intake. No magnets, just fins. They have entire infomercials.

    The most successful has to be Slick 50, which is essentially powdered Teflon which is supposed to bond to engine parts. The fact that it was never shown to be able to do anything but clog the occassional oil filter never stopped them. DuPont tried to stop selling them Teflon back when the had the patent, but they lost in the end.

    Oh so many fake products... I still wonder why the FDA doesn't crack down on vitamins sold as "male enlargement pills". Seems like at the current rate of expansion, the ads for that bull will one day conquer the internet as it becomes the dominant basis for out economy.
     
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  11. tansis

    tansis New Member

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    RustEvader Corporation (a/k/a Rust Evader Corporation, d/b/a REC Technologies); David F. McCready

    An Administrative Law Judge issued an initial decision prohibiting RustEvader and its president from using the names "Rust Evader" or "Rust Buster" for a purported electronic corrosion-control device for automobiles that the judge said is not effective in substantially reducing corrosion, despite the company's advertising campaign to the contrary. The Commission alleged that RustEvader made false claims about this product and about a demonstration and studies regarding its efficacy. The judge's decision prohibits RustEvader from using the two brand names, from misrepresenting the performance, efficacy, or attributes of any automotive product, and from conditioning warranty coverage on the purchase of certain brand-named or trade-named products or services.

    Info kindly provided by...
    Federal Trade Commission
    600 Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C. 20580
    http://www.ftc.gov/

    The theory is sound, it certainly works for boats no one will dispute that,
    as for dismissing any posibble application on "dry" land, well lets just say
    it would make for an interesting study and could well be someones next PHD or hobby project. Wether an individual can make it work or not is irelevent , as something will have been learned and one hopes documented under controlled conditions. After all the judges summing up states that no substantial reduction in rust production was observed, for this to be the case then some minor reduction must have been taking place.
     
  12. zevon8

    zevon8 New Member

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    Tansis, your post has a nice summary of the results seen by nearly all of these ideas. There is very little preventative action produced by the designs on dry land... that is to say the environment works faster in creating corrosion than any preventative results provided by the electronics manage to reduce it.

    As you also pointed out, in a saltwater environment ( the saltwater being the main facilatator of the process ) the effect can work...

    A little food for thought in what is currently ( no pun intended ) in practical use:

    http://www.diveweb.com/inlcostl/features/novdec2000.01.htm
     
  13. tansis

    tansis New Member

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    I kinda liked this one....it has untapped potential

    Coral Arks and Bio Rocks

    Known in some circles as "Coral Arks" because of their proven ability to create new havens for fish and corals in areas where human impact has damaged coral reef habitat, the new artificial reef on Gili Trawangan was constructed using steel bars and copper wiring to produce a tunnel-like steel foundation. Electrodes are attached to transmit low-voltage electrical current into the seawater surrounding the steel structure. Driven by an onshore power source or solar panel, the voltage employed is equivalent to that of a 60-100 watt light bulb.

    How Does it Work?

    In combination with an anode and cathode, the electric current causes dissolved minerals in sea water to crystallize, forming a limestone coating over the exposed steel, a perfect media for coral larvae – the basic building block of the reef.
     
  14. Tom_Braider

    Tom_Braider New Member

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    Hey Oz! You mean those male enhancement pills might not work? Damn!

    I wonder if all this is based on electrostatic spray painting: Back in the 70s small aircraft companies used to use charged spray- not to prevent rust, per se- but to cause paint molecules to be attracted to the metal and therefore use less paint.

    Florida has a high water table, so you don't see basements, and homes are typically 'slab built', meaning the copper plumbing is routed through the concrete slab. Over time, the pipe oxidizes and develops pin-hole leaks. To combat this effect, you can buy expensive transformers to charge the copper pipe.

    Does anyone know if this actually works?

    Does anyone have a circuit schematic?
     
  15. Optikon

    Optikon New Member

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    Now, I will not make the claim that I'm convinced it works but...

    I keep the cars I have well maintained except for the body (my philosophy is, I dont care how it looks but I do care how it runs) Anyways, for years and years where I live there is alot of salt & snow in the winter and it has always wreaked havoc on my cars in terms of rust.. and I never made any efforts to rust-proof or fix blemishes etc.. etc..

    My most recent car however was sold with a "feature" of electroni rust protection. This didnt influence my decision to buy the car 'cuz I couldn't care less whather or not it really works (see above). BUT I have to say for the past six winters, my car has not developed one spot of rust anywhere!

    Now, one might make the covered-metal argument, but there were no extra efforts in this area IMO. I dunno but I dont have any rust.. I'm not convinced it works well or even at all.. but there might be something to it at least for whatever they did on my car. You be the judge...
     
  16. zevon8

    zevon8 New Member

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    Many manufacturers now give you a warranty period of 5 years with no surface rust , 8 years perforation by rust on new cars. I think this would show that great efforts have been made to prevent rust on cars nowadays, right from the factory. Better materials, better coatings, & better processing of both.
     
  17. DirtyLude

    DirtyLude Well-Known Member

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    It's difficult to compare a newer car to an older car in terms of rust protection. They have gotten much better in the last few year of preventing rust. I have a 4 year old Mazda with no rust on it whatsover and I'm too lazy to rust proof any of my cars. I assume it's a combiniation of metals, metal treatment, painting techniques, and doing a better job of protecting trouble spots like screw holes or bolt locations.
     
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  18. tansis

    tansis New Member

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    and now for something completely different :shock:
    ancient rust proofing , still going strong after sixteen centuries.


    Experts at the Indian Instituteof Technology have resolved the mystery behind the 1,600-year-old iron pillar in Delhi, which has never corroded despite the capital's harsh weather.

    Metallurgists at Kanpur IIT have discovered that a thin layer of "misawite", a compound of iron, oxygen and hydrogen, has protected the cast iron pillar from rust.

    The protective film took form within three years after erection of the pillar and has been growing ever so slowly since then. After 1,600 years, the film has grown just one-twentieth of a millimeter thick, according to R. Balasubramaniam of the IIT.

    In a report published in the journal Current Science Balasubramanian says, the protective film was formed catalytically by the presence of high amounts of phosphorous in the iron—as much as one per cent against less than 0.05 per cent in today's iron.

    The high phosphorous content is a result of the unique iron-making process practiced by ancient Indians, who reduced iron ore into steel in one step by mixing it with charcoal.

    Modern blast furnaces, on the other hand, use limestone in place of charcoal yielding molten slag and pig iron that is later converted into steel. In the modern process most phosphorous is carried away by the slag.

    The pillar—over seven metres high and weighing more than six tonnes—was erected by Kumara Gupta of Gupta dynasty that ruled northern India in AD 320-540.

    Stating that the pillar is "a living testimony to the skill of metallurgists of ancient India", Balasubramaniam said the "kinetic scheme" that his group developed for predicting growth of the protective film may be useful for modeling long-term corrosion behaviour of containers for nuclear storage applications.
     
  19. Tom_Braider

    Tom_Braider New Member

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    Okay, NOW you have to tell us how to build a hi-phos iron furnace!
     
  20. Tom_Braider

    Tom_Braider New Member

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    Why kind of car did you buy?
     
  21. arcturus

    arcturus New Member

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    Consider these three Items, and take hope from them

    1. The CounterAct system from Australia does seem to be working well in Canada (August 2008).
    2. It IS true that an electrolyte must be present for this electronic corrosion control system approach to work properly. On a regular car, this electrolyte is, in fact, present. Otherwise, there would be no rust at all. The car does not have to be immersed in electrolyte, especially with the 440 VAC positive square wave systems (at 30 volts DC-positive offset) with the capacitive paint coupling attachement pad. The reason is, that locally effective electrolytic cells are set up, so anytime and at any place on the car body, whenever water or weak exhaust-gas acids (the electrolyte) is present, the cathodic protection is taking place and protecting your car.
    3. Regarding the copper pipes and pin-holing: Yes, the AC-curent system that winds some insulated wire around the copper pipe(where it enters the house) does work perfectly. I have seen it do so in a very bad pin-holing region in ingersoll, Ontario. Everyone has put one of these systems on, and they work mysteriously, but they do work well. Zero pinholing now.
     

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