1. Welcome to our site! Electro Tech is an online community (with over 170,000 members) who enjoy talking about and building electronic circuits, projects and gadgets. To participate you need to register. Registration is free. Click here to register now.
    Dismiss Notice

DIY Toner Transfer Paper (cheap and easy))

Discussion in 'General Electronics Chat' started by Rolf, Jun 26, 2009.

  1. mramos1

    mramos1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2005
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes:
    9
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, Florida USA
    I have a friend that has her nails done at her home a couple times a week. I go over to work on her PC and leave as the smell is so strong in the house. Just do not care for the smell personally.

    She is probably in her late 50's now, known her for more that 10 years. I can not imagine how many clients the person doing the nails does in a day.

    But good point.

    I dab it on a paper towel, wipe a couple times and done. Never really smell it. I think it is safe for toner removal 100% (not a Doctor, Chemist, Lawyer or Californian).
     
  2. mramos1

    mramos1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2005
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes:
    9
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, Florida USA
    All in fun.

    In Florida, I buy a lot of products and they all have a special sticker for "California only" that "this might or does cause cancer". From PCB work, painting, welding, cleaning, etc. I can imagine all the signs out there. Wonder how a gas/petrol station looks.

    It is good to be careful and read all the details. Research what you're working with. Follow the instructions. I have no plans to bathe in it.

    I can see in a closed building it could be bad, at home I take the stuff outside. I read the warnings and they seem to lead me outside :).

    Women live on average 10 years longer than men. Off to rub some acetone on my fingernails.
     
  3. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    9,404
    Likes:
    227
    Location:
    OKLAHOMA USA
    Everything seems to be fair game in this thread so...

    The people in the yahoo PCB group are talking about a PCB method that looks interesting. They are talking about using dry transfer photo resist and exposing it with a laser. Different people have different ideas about pointing the laser. I like the idea of repurposing a pair of voice coil drives from old hard disks to tilt a mirror or two.

    I think one fellowed mentioned 3 mil traces. hmmmm? Do I have a use for 3 mil traces? Not anytime soon.

    Just dreaming.

    3v0
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 1997
    Messages:
    -
    Likes:
    0


     
  5. Angelgroove

    Angelgroove New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    33
    Likes:
    0

    Fire safety

    So now we are onto fire safety. There are several reactivities, Here is the MSDS on the plastic substance in toner:

    SECTION V – REACTIVE DATA
    This product is stable.
    Incompatibility: None
    Hazardous Polymerization: Will not occur.
    Hazardous Decomposition: Terephthalic acid, CO and aldehydes above 300 degrees C.

    So no fire danger per se, but you get it hot enough and like I said in previous posts that occurs at 300°C 572°F which I know some of you can do with turning your irons on full blast (hot spots on the iron face). I am not sure what the acid does but aldehydes are toxic.

    As far as acetone wipes that is a best practice, just like alcohol wipes. Isopropal alcohol is safe as the methanol is combined with the ethanol where the toxicity is way down because the molecule is so big.

    MSDS for Acetone

    Ingredient CAS No Percent Hazardous
    --------------------------------------- ------------ ------------ ---------

    Acetone 67-64-1 99 - 100% Yes


    3. Hazards Identification

    Emergency Overview
    --------------------------
    DANGER! EXTREMELY FLAMMABLE LIQUID AND VAPOR. VAPOR MAY CAUSE FLASH FIRE. HARMFUL IF SWALLOWED OR INHALED. CAUSES IRRITATION TO SKIN, EYES AND RESPIRATORY TRACT. AFFECTS CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM.

    MSDS for Isopropyl Alcohol

    Hazardous Components (Chemical Name)
    CAS # Concentration OSHA PEL ACGIH TWA Other Limits
    Isopropyl alcohol 67-63-0 70.0 % 400 ppm 200 ppm No data.

    Section 3: Hazards Identification
    Potential Acute Health Effects:
    Hazardous in case of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact
    (irritant, sensitizer, permeator).
    Potential Chronic Health Effects:
    Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (sensitizer).
    CARCINOGENIC EFFECTS: A4 (Not classifiable for human or animal.) by ACGIH, 3 (Not classifiable for
    human.) by IARC.
    MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
    TERATOGENIC EFFECTS: Not available.
    DEVELOPMENTAL TOXICITY: Classified Reproductive system/toxin/female, Development toxin [POSSIBLE].
    The substance may be toxic to kidneys, liver, skin, central nervous system (CNS).
    Repeated or prolonged exposure to the substance can produce target organs damage.

    They are both dangerous one so more than the other and they are both flammable but the issue is health effects and slightly verses will harm you are two different distinctions.

    As far as nail salons. I tell my wife all the time to look for salons that have air cleaners next to their acetone's.

    As far as the photo resist method, the chemical safety is well defined in the photo world, with the major chemical used is sodium hydroxide. There is no inhalation sensitivity merely having to acidify it correctly when dumping it to neutral PH.

    As far as the chemical enchants, yes they are dangerous. If heated some produce large amounts of Chlorine gas and can combine with free hydrogen molecules and create high molar content hydrochloric acid. It is always the biproducts that are created that are the problems not necessarily the product itself. This is precisely the IEC requirement for halogen free boards. The bromide itself is safe at room temperature. At elevated high temperatures is is very unsafe. All halogens have that level of severe non safety.

    As far as I am concerned it is a judgment call to use acetone personally, however in a classroom setting safer products must be used. Since most high schools have photo labs (maybe no more with digital cameras and might become a lost art), it is the same technology. There is no same technology with hot toner transfer, it merely is a cheap method for making good enough boards. Bottom line is the toner transfer system has been well known in the hot foil stamping industry for a long time. They never intended to have that toner removed and as such the product is designed to be permanent. You are trying to defeat that and yes is takes heavy duty solvents to do that. I also do not believe anyone can remove a plastic with one swipe, The plastic loads the swab up and one has to constantly use a fresh area of a swab. Someone here must be using some other technology, I just do not buy it.
     
  6. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    9,404
    Likes:
    227
    Location:
    OKLAHOMA USA
    I want a DNA test to see if crashsite and Anglegroove are related.

    3v0
     
  7. mramos1

    mramos1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2005
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes:
    9
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, Florida USA
    If they're that worried about common chemicals, they can use steel wool to get the toner off. Wear a mask. That should be safe enough. Or wet sandpaper, no dust.

    All the chemicals mention a well ventilated area. I did not see the Angelgroove CUT and PASTE on the can. But I'm still going to use Acetone like I have for a long time. I don't have a fire going while I use it.

    3v0, that was funny.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2009
  8. mneary

    mneary New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2007
    Messages:
    4,502
    Likes:
    67
    Location:
    California USA
    @Angelgroove, typing on a keyboard can be hazardous. Be careful. ;)
     
  9. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    14,047
    Likes:
    141
    Location:
    Rochester, US
    Angelgove, I love how you question other users successfully demonstrated methods.
    Steel wool is a bad idea, it leaves metal particles that will rust. Scotchbrite would be better.
     
  10. mramos1

    mramos1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2005
    Messages:
    2,403
    Likes:
    9
    Location:
    Boynton Beach, Florida USA
    True, was more of a response to the acetone comments.

    I use it before I iron the toner on to clean the copper. Not to remove the toner.

    It can also leave little parts that could short the pads. I would hope they would wash the board after they removed the toner.
     
  11. Angelgroove

    Angelgroove New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    33
    Likes:
    0
    Some before were asking about temps

    Here is the information from a credible source when using a GBC laminator. Since there actually are temps the foils from Pulsar can be seen. It is also a good starting point with temps needed when using an iron. I measured my iron and it only gets to 290°F. My heat press can handle the 310°F and I use it with the foils quite well. When I get rich I will buy a fancy laminator.

    http://www.gbcconnect.com/assets/docs/2070_2130_OP_MAN.pdf

    I think this is pretty good to understand the heat you are putting into a board.

    Pay close attention to the bottom most line item called: Creative Foil. This is the foil setting for Pulsar foil. Toner should be cranked back to the 275°F number. Reason is most manufacturers including HP put polypropylene into the toner and that has a very low melt temp. Everything is a dry composite in toner, nothing is reformulated with solvents or any other methods. Just micro sized bits of polypropylene, polyesters, iron oxides, and various color enhancements. The polypropylene can ooze at 310°F.
     
  12. Angelgroove

    Angelgroove New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    33
    Likes:
    0
    Make your own transfer paper

    Its a pain but it works. Might try the recipe with magazine paper. The only reason for the silicone is to keep the dextrin from curling the paper. I am wondering if this will curl the magazine paper. If not then I have my solution.

    My problem is making solder masks with Puslar's foils. I get everything to go up until the last point where the final print on the PC Board cracks. I only found that out today after I made some decals for another project.

    What I found was quite startling. If I print in the same fashion (Foiling printing again etc...) on plane paper I get brilliant color and no issues. The toner binds to the white foil without any issues. When I use the transfer paper I get lots of problems. The color is weak, and I get drop outs here and there. So I tried magazine paper to see if I get the same results as either the plain paper or the transfer paper. The magazine once again with the same process of as before came out vibrant and no issues just like the plain paper test. Something is wrong with the transfer paper, I have a suspicion it is the anti curl additive used in the backing paper that does something in the laser printer.

    Here is the PDF:
     

    Attached Files:

  13. mvs sarma

    mvs sarma Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,512
    Likes:
    76
    Location:
    Hyderabad, India.
    i have used catalog paper that is too thin by sticking it side ways by 3M tape on an A4 paper. it worked well
    the paper was retrieved from RS components catalog of UK or even farnell catalog or Times magazine paper would suffice.
    instead, inkjet photo paper glossy ( not too thick) would do well
    and we need to make few punches on the paper at random in the NO-track areas before ironing so that water would easily enter.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  14. Angelgroove

    Angelgroove New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    33
    Likes:
    0
    Using other papers

    In making what I am doing, what I have figured out, and it is merely my own opinion, is that the toner imaging density has a second value not only cranking up the density in the printer but the paper that goes through the printer has to be the right consistency that laser printers need to see. That is what I just saw with the transfer paper from Pulsar is that it seems to print okay but when compared side to side with the plain paper equivalent it is not vibrant enough, and I get cracking in the final image which is wholly unacceptable. My opinion is too that if this cracking is occurring and the print is muddy, it means not enough toner got onto the print. Same thing seems to be occurring with ink-jet iron on transfer paper. The images are dull and why most manufactures of T shirts have resorted to solid red inks instead of magenta and real green inks instead of mixing cyan and yellow. But doing that you have to custom control the print nozzles.

    Additionally, I see from many posts in other industries that use a similar process is that there is a cast of green in the image which I can see, and that the images lack plain paper vibrancy and that is not even considering the color vibrancy losses seen in photo papers. That tells me that the dextrin and its paper backing have to look and feel like bond paper to both the laser and ink jet printers and that there may be only one supplier that has met the requirements for the ink jet but that it still is a vexing issue with the laser printers.

    I will openly admit I am being very picky here. I want color vibrancy, I want no additional hue cast from the transfer medium, I need easy slide off transfer no scrubbing at all, and I want consistency every time so that if I make 100 of something, I do not have 20 rejects.

    I am looking at making some of my own transfer paper and will let everyone know how it works. I am using the worst laser printer for this a Samsung which already is frugal with its toner but that seems the best place to start; not with the laser printer that pumps the toner out like HP does.
     
  15. EF80

    EF80 New Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2010
    Messages:
    1
    Likes:
    0
    I must admit I have better luck with PnP, gee that Green paper far too wrinkly for my liking.. just a thought here though..... why could there not be a coating of sealent between the starch or glue whatever between the Toner transfer and paper so you don't have the seal the toner!

    Now reason for the post, it appears that the temperature is important.... how important is the question, because while you are talking about thermal resistances through this n' that.... you all appear to neglect the board size - bigger copper area requires more heating so the size matters and no doubt the type of board be fibre glass or other material... also the copper clad thickness may well come into play 'to a degree'.... I did say 'may'.

    You'd think by now there would be a small dedicated A4 size flat bed printer that would be ideal, lets face it we can print on CDs now, not much difference in size there and for our work we don't need pretty colours!
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2010
  16. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    9,404
    Likes:
    227
    Location:
    OKLAHOMA USA
    I posted about a direct print inkjet system earlier today.
     
  17. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 27, 2006
    Messages:
    14,047
    Likes:
    141
    Location:
    Rochester, US
    Hey 3v0, mind posting a link to that thread? I lose a lot of stuff in the number of posts made here a day, and I wouldn't want to miss that one.
     
  18. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    9,404
    Likes:
    227
    Location:
    OKLAHOMA USA
  19. tariq7868

    tariq7868 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2009
    Messages:
    116
    Likes:
    3
    FINALLY, made myself a PCB , CHEAP & EASY,,, THANKs ALOT for the tips guys,,,

    I used very thin wax paper (used in drawing books ) .. i first pasted the wax paper by sides on a A4 (70gm/m^3) paper so that it wont stuck-up in the printer. Printing was done then easily.. & then for pressing with Iron, as i hadn't had iron which indicates/points temperature, :p so i just kept pressing & wiping the iron until traces of toner lining could be seen through the Paper ,so i knew that toner has melted alright...so after cooling down the board & putting it directly under the water & with light rubbing,, I had my first ever Successfull PCB (on my second try :D ) !..
     
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2010
  20. QuietMan

    QuietMan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    Messages:
    155
    Likes:
    3
    Location:
    Dallas, TX
    Ditto, been working on this for a while, 20 years ago I got decent results with some special blue transparency that was supposed to be made for the purpose, but since then it has been a PITA. I've finally gotten decent results.

    My old HP6P Laser Jet has decided it doesn't like anything thick, photo paper just gets stuck in it. So I tried magazine extra glossy and wax paper, both with almost usable results. I was in one of my favorite outlets in Carrolton TX (Tanner's) and took a chance in the form of a laminator (GBC HeatSeal H210). That solved the consistency problem. I took the advice one of other members gave on this thread and feed it through several time (8 or so). The results were very, very good. I still have problems removing paper, but using Tom Gootee's advice I'm trying cheese cloth.

    I also tried a new etchant, the 2:1 Hydrogen Peroxide/Muriatic Acid mix. This stuff is dangerous, acid is no joke, but it works like dream. Much better than Ferric Chloride. I suspect strongly it is a lot friendlier than FeCl too ecologically speaking, even though if someone were to disrespect it it will leave major chemical burns. I used a Q tip to rub the surface while it was etching. If I had a decent close up lens for my camera I would leave pictures.

    Thanks guys.
     
  21. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 14, 2006
    Messages:
    9,404
    Likes:
    227
    Location:
    OKLAHOMA USA
    Given that you live in the US and can buy a pack of pulsar paper from mouser for $15 why bother with reinventing the wheel. You dump the stuff in the water which dissolves the starch coating and the paper floats away leaving all the toner on the PCB.

    If you time is worth anything you will get the $15 back.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2010

Share This Page