DIY Toner Transfer Paper (cheap and easy))

[3v0]

Show some backbone and give Frank a call !

3v0

 

[Angelgroove]

How hard is it to take 5 minutes to do some research, when the place to do the research and the search criteria have been given to you?

This is what I found, doing 30 seconds of searching on Youtube, like I instructed you to do and you ignored. Again.

YouTube - How to Hand Solder a QFP, Part 3

Yes I see now and thank you. What still is lacking is three items that are critical.

1. First is the solder mask. It can handle the 700°F of the solder and that keeps the toner system from working this type of board. This needs a silkscreened epoxy or silicon based formula as the soldermask. This is one big reason I am working on the photo method.
   
2. Second, the IC's and other components are accurately placed and glued down.
   
3. Third, the use of a liquid flux. This in of itself is the reason this works on pretinned surfaces.

I am very impressed that you are able to solder these components down on rough pads with no soldermask. You get a lot of credit for that.

 

[MrDEB]

   1. First is the solder mask. It can handle the 700°F of the solder and that keeps the toner system from working this type of board. This needs a silkscreened epoxy or silicon based formula as the soldermask. This is one big reason I am working on the photo method.

How does a solder mask prevent the use of the toner method.?
The board is etched, then solder mask applied

   2. Second, the IC's and other components are accurately placed and glued down.

a dab of crazy glue solves this very easy.

   3. Third, the use of a liquid flux. This in of itself is the reason this works on pretinned surfaces.

how does liquid flux affect the toner transfer system??

 

[DirtyLude]

Yes I see now and thank you. What still is lacking is three items that are critical.

First is the solder mask. It can handle the 700°F of the solder and that keeps the toner system from working this type of board. This needs a silkscreened epoxy or silicon based formula as the soldermask. This is one big reason I am working on the photo method.

Why do you care about solder mask? It's not essential.

Second, the IC's and other components are accurately placed and glued down.

You are assuming this, like you assume everything based on no research or evidence.
Video that shows the alignment and tacking down prior to soldering.
YouTube - Placing a 32-pin ATmega8 TQFP
YouTube - TQFP soldering - my way

Third, the use of a liquid flux. This in of itself is the reason this works on pretinned surfaces.

I have no idea what this sentence means or why this is "critical".

I am very impressed that you are able to solder these components down on rough pads with no soldermask. You get a lot of credit for that.

It's not hard and many people can do it. You think it's special because you haven't done any investigation at all.

 

[DirtyLude]

Just looking at Youtube videos, this Make video is almost my exact process, with the same paper I use. Mine is the older paper in the old packaging, though.
YouTube - Make Your Own Printed Circuit Boards on a Laserjet!

 

[Angelgroove]

The dreaded photo board

Since I know lots of responses were on their way, I went ahead and perfected the photo system that costs no more than the TTS system from the printer. From that point I simply have a cost of developer (NaOH) that is pretty cheap considering how many boards an oz can process. So if you consider the cost of the iron electricity or the lamination I think its a wash.

This board is the same board I did yesterday with the TTS. This board using the PTS will show the better results of no wavy lines under zooming in, and no pitting at all.

Again the Pulsar foil is good but as the website states the white is not white until a second layer is put on. I do not know why the TTF system fails but I also see others boards with the same defects, pitting.

As far as a solder mask. In order to make comparisons that have to like kind. All the videos Mark sent me are on boards with solder masks. Can this same method be used to solder up these micro boards without a solder mask? Good question I cant answer that yet. All I know is that a soldermask is used in all the videos which leads me to believe that to do a like kind comparison one must use a solder mask.

As far as a toner solder mask. It does not have the heat capacity. I thought I already talked about that but lets put it here again. Toner goes off just under 300° F becomes liquid at about 320°F and is a gas anything above that as the plastics gas off under thermal loading. Solder temp minimum using silver solder paste is going off at 450°F. If using 60/40 Kester solder your temp on the area approaches 700°F. I know all of this because I used to work for soldering iron company by the name of MetCal back in the day. Bottom line is the toner will simply gas off with who knows what kind of toxic vapors. No thank you. A soldermask has to withstand the highest temp on a board and that is generally an epoxy. Helps strengthen the board too.

Chris

 

[3v0]

The green foil is to cover the toner prior to etching.

The while foil is used to apply lettering to the board after it is etched.

3v0

 

[DirtyLude]

This is painful. I'll just step out.

Your board has two bridged pads.

 

[MrDEB]

wavy traces??

I recently etched some adapter boards for my Junebug and decided to try some .006 inch traces.Just for ecxperemintal purposes.
no problem. just need to clean my boards better. used some scrap, cleaned but not real good.
note no wavy traces, no pitting all using the PULSAR TTS. used the green foil as well.Just follow directions and talk to Frank about minor problems. All solved with one phone call. Who you gonna call-Kodak or Fuji?? good luck
as far as cost you need to procure photo sensitive boards or apply chemical to make your own.$$
then you need to purchase the clear plastic sheets$only place I found them was staples but kinda spendy.
you still need to print out your design using ??
after exposing your boards you may still have voids?? pin holes??
not sure how you de-sentize a board?
having used the PULSAR TTS system, I see no reason to go with photo resist, too many steps, to many things can go wrong (not enough exposure or too much??
I stand behind my traces except the slight boo boos of dirty boards.

 

[PulsarProFX]

I think you're mixing techniques and confusing readers!

Congratulations on your perfected "PTS". Can't wait to see it in action.

I love competition and to see the best product win. Let's have a contest! Maybe I'm looking at the wrong pic, but is your process representative of the SMT board you showed in your prior post the best it can do? Was it a pic of a single 16pin SO package outline? If it is, you might want to re-think what you're claiming to a better system than our process, and I mean that in the best possible way! All of the traces are distorted (squished) to the point that two are bridged in the bottom left of the SMT part outline and several breaks in paths. Hmmmm. Where do I read up on your full process? Maybe I can lend some assistance to your technique.

I have to let you know and tell everyone who is reading some of your entries, that you are pushing some very wrong information unless of course, I'm missing the points you are trying to make (and that's highly possible with my pea-brain).

You said in an earlier post... "the Pulsar foil is good but as the website states the white is not white until a second layer is put on. I do not know why the TTF system fails but I also see others boards with the same defects, pitting."

As the developer and manufacturer of "PCB Fab-In-A-Box" (PCB "Fab-In-A-Box" ... Make boards in 8 minutes flat!) I have to correct your information here. White is NOT used to fabricate a board. GreenTRF is the proper one to use. Big difference! GreenTRF maintains perfect edge definition, securing itself perfectly right out to the absolute edges of the toner circuit image. White is used for applying a SILKSCREEN image for nomenclature and text AFTER the board is done. One white application is sufficient.

Now, what you're confusing here, is the "double" use of white. We also make a ground-breaking product called "DecalPRO" to create real "dry-transfer" graphics in white, full color and any of 12 metallics foils colors. Over in that area, (Make your own custom DRY TRANSFERS in less than 10 minutes with "DecalPRO") the website goes into detail about the advantages of applying a double-white to achieve a 100% radiant white for GRAPHIC ARTISTS (which is rarely ever needed and too boring to explain that here for this audience). A single white over a circuit board is just fine and no need to do anything else.

You also said earlier, if I'm not mistaken (and again, I usually am), that you expected the GreenTRF to bridge missing toner "specs". Well, it will not. This is why it's up to the user to ensure their toner cartridge has no bad "spots" on the toner imaging drum. To test a drum, simply print a black box onto white paper that is the size of the paper. It doesn't take much toner although it LOOKS like it's dumping all the toner in one printing. It's only a micro amount used and it's a valuable test if you're getting "pits" in your toner traces. Hole the printed white paper up to a sun-lit window. Look for "banding" of the toner density and ANY repeating "white" dots. (That is the circumference of the drum when you see anything repeat down the page). Get a new toner cartridge if this is anything but a solid semi-transparent sheet of black toner!)

MELTING POINT OF TONER:
You said, "Toner goes off just under 300° F becomes liquid at about 320°F and is a gas anything above that as the plastics gas off under thermal loading." This is solid crap. You can't say stuff like that! You must use two variable to determine when toner changes state, and this second variable is PRESSURE. We have a very large following in the "homebuilt aircraft" arena. The average cost of these are from $40k to $200k+. They wanted to "powder coat" their entire aircraft control panel. Powder coating has to ramp up to over 500ºF to cure the "powder" paint. Being that there is no pressure being applied to graphics made with raw toner, it survives just fine. I don't know exactly what temperature it would burn up but it surely doesn't turn to a gas! Again, what you're referring to (I think) is when we discussed applying a green overcoat spray of Testors 1601 Translucent Green over the finished board. When the soldering iron is laid over a painted copper surface, it will vaporize the paint and allow the solder to flow around the component lead and voila! a real looking solder mask.

So, when your "PTS" system can do this, please give me a call! This is all done with only .008" traces on .006" air-gaps by David Coombs, Elect. Engineer. (We bribe customers to send in pics for $20 worth of free products!)

Here is a sample of what our customers are doing. Board cost (1/2oz .032", toner used, electric, etc... under $1. (Photo attached)

Thanks for listening 'yall
Frank

/• Business & Personal/b2) Products/a2) PCB/b1) • Pictures/PCB/David Coombs/SMT High Res Square/PCB 2 - David Coombs.psd

 

[PulsarProFX]

Oops!

How do you post a pic on this darn contraption? (SORRY!)
Just found it! Ok, so here is the pic that should have been attached to my last post...

 

[DirtyLude]

I forgot to post this earlier.

Originally Posted by DirtyLube

**broken link removed**

 

[PulsarProFX]

A bit more on the 2x SMT board above...

The board builders quote on how this was made...

"The project uses 0402 resistors, 0603 caps, and a 64-pin LQFP device, to name a few. It was built using 8-mill traces, 6-mill space, 20-mill vias, and 10-mill via holes. The board was pre-drilled and routed on a Sherline desktop CNC mill.

Notice that the board is .8" square with .1" header pins holes on the two sides. There are caps mounted BETWEEN each of the .1" header pin holes."

 

[MrDEB]

that is a nice appearing board Frank.
8 mil traces. need to look up what that converts to in inches.

 

[PulsarProFX]

Hi MrDEB,

.008" (8mil) traces is .2mm (Sorry, I'm always thinking English measurement)

Frank

 

[PulsarProFX]

My 2 basic startup requirements before attempting SMT...

1) Headband Magnifier (5x stereo). Use OptiVISOR w/light attachment! GREAT! **broken link removed**

2) Lot's of Coffee.

When we get the SMT section done on the website (PCB "Fab-In-A-Box" ... Make boards in 8 minutes flat!) it'll have all of the tricks and how to do it without manually soldering. Coming soon as well as new "Flex" PCB kit for pigtails, interconnects, membrane keyboards, etc. Should be very high demand. Due out before the end of the year. More hours in a day... that's all I ask!

Frank Miller
850-926-2009

 

[Angelgroove]

Wow lots of comments!

I have made some notes on Mr. Deb's board that was done and etched. I cannot see the etched boards to well very grainy. As I noticed when taking the photo of my PTS board the light from the camera makes the shiny surface reflect too much. Like taking a picture with the flash in a mirror. I will leave the resist on next time which should help any camera.

I made a boo boo when I made the PTS board in that it has to be print side down and I did it reversed. My old mind cant remember what we did in high school. But with research I remembered the printed side of the negative has to be down otherwise the few mils of clear will cause a lens effect. What I see under a scope is the that traces and pads grew slightly and created the pads that shorted although they do ring out I agree this will not pass inspection.

I understand the white verses the green. I also believe you when you say the green was specially formulated. The problem I see when doing a side to side comparison of green foil verses white foil under the same circumstances the white foil does a much better job of covering. I do not represent I know why but I think that is why I am having trouble with the TTS system.I do not use the white foil to etch with.

As I pointed out earlier, and thank you is a shout out to Mr Deb, I circled (actually squared) in orange places I also think problems occur. I also would be interested in some better pics of Mr. Deb's finished product.

I also get 6 mil and 3 mil lines around my boards. These tend to go away in places, and as such are not reliable in long runs.

The nice thing is now with the ability to easily create negatives that the PTS boards can really work with, I have a master I can use to easily remake the boards. I am working on redoing an old scanner and loading it up with bulbs so that I have even exposure. One bulb barely works with a 1" board. I will make another board up with putting the print side down.

Thanks to 3VO and this web site. I would not be where I am today with reinvigorating a 30 year old process. I gave up a long time ago that I would ever be able to make negatives from my printer.

Frank: I do not know of any thermoplastic that can take 500°F. There must be thermal gradients there or they are post labeling their planes. Having not seen their process I have to take your comments with a grain of salt. Are you saying it is the carbon only in the toner system? That I find hard to believe, carbon does not have enough outer valence electrons to "stick to" unlike plastics which are loaded with outer valance electrons. Or are you saying there is another "sticktion" method going on here?

 

[PulsarProFX]

Regarding Toner Vaporizing earlier in the thread...

Toner is basically a combination of 9 elements. It's primarily iron oxide (for color) followed closely by styrene (an acrylate copolymer), polyester resin, wax, and a handful of other much lower percentages. All manufacturers keep the specifics under lock 'n key. If you put a raw toner image on pottery and fire it in a kiln you can get very interesting colors! Yes, at 2,500ºF it does fully vaporize! If you look up "powder coating" the process gives you paint that is much harder than even epoxy. Huge range of colors including CLEAR! If you do this, you must tell the powder coater company to "Half-Cure" the color base. You then take the panel and add your graphics, etc and return it to the coater to apply clear with a Full Cure! That's the trick. The temps do ramp up slowly up to some 500ºF but I'm not a chemist so I can't tell you why it doesn't vaporize it just doesn't. Interesting too to put you finger in 1200dpi type toner. It's so fine it feels like it's water.

Frank

 

[MrDEB]

the squares you marked are smuges

on scanner glass is only thing I can figure as I looked at all the traces before tinning with liquid tin.
here are some photos of completed boards(not easy taking pics)same boards as posted earlier just tinned.
as well as boards before adding components.

 

[Angelgroove]

Toner chemistry

Any paint that I know of that you put into a 500°F oven is a phenolic. Remember those old kitchen parts that you used to put in the oven and they stunk and tasted weird. Or the old radio sets with internal parts that smelled.

There is a phenolic paint that when cooked off at 500°F will turn rock hard. California does not allow this paint however because the VOCs are off the chart. I used this paint on my heads of an old 6.9 liter Ford diesel. It effectively stopped the rust from doing anymore damage. I had to cook them on a BBQ because the heads were so big.

In color toner, I am sure the little color bits and pieces come from polyester resin parts. Polyester is a great thermoplastic and also is the source of the styrene, a cancer causing monomer. I have a polyester sprayer from Binks that is quite something. The plastic industry in California wants to cut the spraying out because again the huge amounts of VOC's that are sprayed out but the finish is a gel coat with granite like effect. The granite effect that was done with either an acrylic or a polyester with bits of color from bits of precast colored resin. It is quite the art and only a couple of companies makes those bits and pieces. If anyone is interested in a slightly used polyester granite effect sprayer and does not live in California I will sell it. I paid $6500 about 8 years ago, it has seen only about 20 hours of use. I will let it go for far less. If you heat a .100" thick layer of this polyester up, it has two distinct properties:

1. It forms to any 3 dimensional object. That means you can wrap it around a pole and it will keep that shape when it cools. Its temperature is about 285°F at that "plastic point".
   
2. It sticks to things.

I am sure it is not too much trouble to make the grain sizes even smaller for use in the toner. The FeO2 is rust in color and I cannot imagine why they use this other than its magnetic effects but at the temp the drum runs the magnetic effect is all but gone.

What you are talking about is that toner is a multi-blended structure. The waxes are obviously there to keep the stuff from sticking to the drum. Those waxes could be a hinder to having the foils stick. That seems to be the problem I see with the green foil like some little bits of something in the toner is not letting the foil adhere. I get superb coverage so that is not the issue. Another thing I am thinking about is that the silicon oil that the drum in the laser printer uses to keep the last film of toner from sticking could be getting little globs into the face of the toner as the oil would tend to float up. I think it may be worth to lightly wash the face of the printed image right after the print to get any waxes and any silicon off of the print.

I once painted a Porsche with a catalyzed paint. Right at the drivers side on the hood was a dimple where the paint did not stick. It, whatever it was, pooled around the paint and created onion ring effect. I had to sand down the whole hood again and prime it with an expensive alcohol based primer. That did the trick but was a puzzle why anything was in the hood preventing the paint from adhering.

I think the same thing happens here with the toner. Something that has no "sticktion" and is suspended on the top layers of the print. When the foil goes on, at the microscopic level, there is pin point of non adherence. The white foil seems to deal with this better than the green foil. It is your foils that create the chemical wall. If there are microscopic points where non adherence occurs this will create the bumpiness of the etch that I do not see in the PTS because the light is a little forgiving.

I would advocate that Puslar invest in an R&D department that creates it's own toner for it's favorite laser printer. Toner free of oils and waxes. The drum can be coated with some of the new techniques we have today that nothing will ever stick so maybe no need for the release waxes and oils. That also leads to modifying laser printers. I am sure if you prefect this, HP or some other manufacturer would be very willing to build these special laser printers for you at a licensed level. This assumes patents. Additionally, this of course assumes no one wants to build boards with the photo based system.

With the PTS, what I have done is to get light blocking negatives out of my laser printer. That is significant.