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Did anyone follow the "Bail Out"?

Discussion in 'Members Lounge' started by Space Varmint, Oct 4, 2008.

  1. Space Varmint

    Space Varmint New Member

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    Man, we got sold down the river. I couldn't believe it! I've not been so politically active in quite some time. This is a disaster of epic proportion.

    First they tried to pass the "bail out" bill on Monday but the people shut down the switch boards with opposition to this bill. So they changed the name and added 400 and something pages to it and passed it Wednesday in the Senate against the will of the people. Then the house passed it Friday morning. They call it the "economic rescue" bill now.

    There are some real bad things in this bill. They have given the Treasury dictatorial powers over the state and full diplomatic immunity.

    I heard some congressmen talking about what happened and they said they were threatened with physical Martial Law in the streets if they didn't sign. They used terms like "lions would be eating babies". The Army Times reported that they were bringing in the 3rd infantry brigade home to the US to patrol the streets Oct 1st. They are bringing more.

    This is nothing but a band-aid as far as fixing the screw ups of the corporations. They will be back for more. What's really bad is the money is being used to bail out foreign corporations as well. Wonder how they paid for that enormous collider in Switzerland? Guess the US tax payer gets to pay for it now. It was bought on credit.

    What are your thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2008
  2. killivolt

    killivolt Well-Known Member

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    Caught in a river of tears.

    Did you just wake up or have you been worrying about this all night. I thought no one would even touch this one.

    It's difficult to talk about because there are so many chain reactions that will come out of this discussion. If you just say that we here in the U.S. can only discuss it then I guess OK.

    However, if you want people in the U.K. to join (don't) be ready to hear your own point of view.

    Very sticky subject and boarding on anarchy will most likely result. This may only fuel the fire rather than finding solutions to this tragedy.

    kv

    Edit: In addition it may be fodder for political intent. Further decent to find a Scape Goat to burn on the alter of hate.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2008
  3. Hero999

    Hero999 Banned

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    I've heard about some alarmists are claiming the US is on its way to socialism.

    The more general concern is that taxpayers' money is ending up in the hands of fat cats.

    I can see why people don't like it but I think the government need to do something.

    Some UK banks have been nationalised.

    I hope the government will implement safegards to limit windfalls for fat cats.

    As far as socialism is concerned, I can see banks losing some of their econnomic freedom but I can't see us or the US ending up like North Korea or Cuba any time soon. The old Labour government were far more socalist than they are now, at one point 25% of our economy was under their control but there was no heavy handed censorship, secret police or labour camps so I don't think we have anything to fear.
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Mikebits

    Mikebits Well-Known Member

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    For the Average Joe citizen who invested their life savings, might lose their shirt without the bailout. When avg Joe goes broke and can no longer buy the G.I. Joe with kung fu grip for his kid, the merchants fail and this ripples out everywhere. Empty streets and ghost towns could very well become common place. The bailout should help reduce this ghost town ripple.
     
  6. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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    I'm sure it's going to take a while for the public to figure out what just happened. Personally, I think our government did some bad things with that bill. Seems like a lot of paper, for a couple of weeks talk. Heard it's over 400 pages long, lot's of stuff not related to banks or mortgages. Seems like this 'crisis' came up a little too quick, as well as the 'resolution'. Pretty sure we are getting rear-ended on this one, and just the beginning.

    The money lenders should have been left to fix their own greedy little problem. Now they have no incentive to change their course of business. It's more of a financial incentive to continue make bad loans, giving credit cards to high school kids, and encouraging folks to live a dream beyond their means.

    Our savings are insured (most banks and accounts up to $100,000.00), so the mass aren't going to lose everything. Stock market investments, are like buying lottery tickets, although most folks think of them more as a savings account, until they start losing money. I imagine there are a lot of people, who would lose most everything, but I think the vast majority would get by just fine. The bail out is only going to postpone the fall a year or two, next time the problem will be many times greater, there will be more banks and businesses holding out their hands for some of that bail-out money.

    It's kind of funny really. The money lenders, the ones who have been screwing the consumers out of their hard earned money, squeezing out every last cent, driving them to bankruptcy, have found a way to still extract a few more dollars.

    Since we have a general election coming up, I wish they would have put this on the ballet, let the people decide.

    We really need to shut down some of the credit, shouldn't be so easy to get a loan, or a credit card. We need to get back to a place where you have to earn the responsibility of a loan. The lenders need to be held to the rates agreed on signing, no more variable or adjustables. The consumers need to get back to living within their means, pay cash, save up for large purchases.

    I don't see this bill as a bail-out, it's more like a hand out. Maybe the lawmakers will figure out some restrictions and regulations the lenders most follow, if they want some free cash next time.

    Our next president is going to have to work on this one. Bush had terrorist, the next one is going to have huge money and economic problems. Obama definitely isn't the man for the job, Mccain is only slightly better. I'm going to stock up for some rough times in the next few years...
     
  7. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    Let me start that I have always concidered banking and the stock market as devices put in place to rip off the common joe. It is true that common people have made money in the stock market, but it is the insiders who make the big bucks.

    I hope I am wrong but history indicates that most of the money will go into the pockets of fat cats.

    Unless you have invested in one of the banks they are bailing out I do not see where this will help much. Could make it worse by spending more money we do not have. If you have money in banks the FDIC will cover it up to a point. At that point it is time to put some of your money in an additional bank.

    There used to be dozens of automakers. Why not let the healthy banks buy up the remains of the crooked/sick ones and let nature take its course.
     
  8. Torben

    Torben Well-Known Member

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    Sorry to jump in here. I know I'm Canadian, but it is true that the Canadian economy is tied very tightly to the American economy.

    I hate how this was allowed to happen, and I wouldn't be happy about the bailout unless I was a very fat cat indeed.

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but the people who will most benefit from the bailout appear to be the very same people who got our economies into this cluster**** in the first place.


    Torben
     
  9. bryan1

    bryan1 Well-Known Member

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    Isn't this whole shamozzle pay back for voting for bush last time.:p It does make one wonder with the price of oil dropping heaps the fuel price still goes up :eek:. This whole (socalled) credit crisis is all in the masterplan buy the chosen few. Just think it won't be next generation who need to have microschips inplanted it will be this one and this scam is just one step closer to the fact. Well atleast here in Oz we aint too concerned as the minig boom still rants on and on...
     
  10. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    It's a classic example of how government implements controls and regulations, then loses interest in making them work. The regulators and their associated bureaucracies grow, get lazy(er), and generally fail to do their job. Then there's a disaster, and a new system of regulations and regulators is built over the old, ad nauseam. The old is never dismantled, as that would involve unemployment for the bureaucrats.

    Fact is, after the the crash of 1929, there were others, including the Savings and Loan crash in the late 1980's. They have each followed the same pattern. We have adequate regulations today as a result, but the SEC and FINRA did not do their jobs. FINRA, in particular, is nothing more than a schlep for the industry, yet it "arbitrates" all disputes. Imagine any other industry where the police, judge, and jury are solely employees (in effect) of the companies being regulated. THAT was set up by the SEC. If you ever want to know why, just check the various web sites of who gives money where. An executive who gets paid $4million per week certainly spreads some of it around. (CEO of Merrill Lynch got $12million for 3 weeks of work...to save you the math, that $100,000 per hour, assuming he worked anywhere near 40 hour per week).

    Nevertheless, there is a big problem today. The really good solutions are being ignored, and the American Congress is playing politics as usual. The best idea I have heard is to appoint the AG of NY, Andrew Cuomo as head of the SEC and give him the power he needs. (BTW, he is registered as a Democrat.) He cleaned up some of the really crooked stuff with the biggest banks (look up Auction Rate Securities, http://www.oag.state.ny.us/home.html) and got settlements while the SEC was asleep. Then, the SEC decided it had to "approve" the settlements and simply delayed things for almost two months to date with no real deadline in sight.

    John
     
  11. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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    The part that worries me some is the government using tax dollars to buy up 'toxic' assets. I take 'toxic' to mean things like noncollectable credit card debts, foreclosed properties, and loans discharged in bankruptcy. Since the banks and collection agencies have limits as to how far they can go to collect, will the government be held to the same limits? If the financial industry can't move this stuff, what can the government do with it?

    The dollar value would seem to be debatable as well. Most credit and loans have fees and penalties associated with missed or late payments. Wondering how much of these loans are principle, and how much is added on by the lender. I'm sure most of it is greatly inflated, but by how much. When someone defaults on a loan or credit card, the interest doesn't stop.

    I find it disturbing how quickly our government pushed this through. Obviously the taxpayers and consumers weren't the main concern, most seemed opposed to it, and their representatives voted accordingly at first. Got a strong hunch that most of the politicians, are heavily invested in the stock market, own banks and such, and will probably be putting a large portion of the bail-out money toward protecting their own investments. Seems like a huge conflict of interest.
    I think getting credit flowing again is a bad thing, needs to be slowed down. It would have been better if the government were to take steps to insure businesses could get a fair and reasonable loan in the first place.

    Consumers and businesses need to get back to make do with what they have. The salaries paid to CEOs, presidents, and other executives, is outrageous. Kind of like all those sports superstars, and multi-million dollar contracts. There are thousands of people who could get the job done just as well, for a small fraction.
     
  12. Space Varmint

    Space Varmint New Member

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    Some really great comments here. I think most have a fairly good understanding of what just happened. I'm still trying to figure it out. The thing that bothers me is how they took a "we just have to use our own judgment" stance on the matter because clearly the people overwhelmingly were opposed to the bail out. That is disturbing.

    Torben made a great comment from a Canadian's perspective. It does effect Canada. Then bryan1 sort of added to it nicely. I agree with bryan1 that it was planned and I know they have been pushing for a North American Union like the EU but ours will be Canada, US & Mexico. I look for that to be pushed strongly in the next admin.

    Anybody who is thinking their money is insured (I saw that mentioned) I believe I would not put too much faith in the system right now. I believe it is time to start looking out for our selves. We need to get some hard currency if you can afford it. Like gold & silver in hand. It would appear others understand that because the availability of gold is disappearing. I have heard this from companies that sell gold. One of them said that they were the only one's in the country who had any Swiss Franks available.

    Don't you just love how these CEOs pay themselves several million dollar bonuses and now they need us to bail them out? Yeah, that bill was designed for that fat cats. Not Joe hard working average American. But who do they turn to? They put us in this mess to begin with and I say they should get them own selves out or go belly up like the rest of us when we make bad business deals. It isn't fair! Not fair at all.
     
  13. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    If you have ever wondered about where the money goes, why Barney Frank's "investigation" a couple of weeks ago went nowhere, and so forth, check out who contributes to whom and from which company. Mr. Frank got $5000 from a PAC run by UBS.

    This information is out there. You will need to search around a little on these links and know the names. Unfortunately, the majority of Americans seem to get their news from CBS, ABC, and NBC during commercial breaks on reality shows. That is, if they aren't raiding the frig for another beer.

    http://www.campaignmoney.com/finance.asp?type=io&cycle=08&criteria=UBS

    http://fundrace.huffingtonpost.com/neighbors.php?type=emp&employer=UBS&search=Search

    It's not a conspiracy; it's just old fashioned follow the money.

    John
     
  14. killivolt

    killivolt Well-Known Member

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    Straws that break the Camels back ?

    My question is can anyone name all the straws that have broken the Camels Back.

    If you have a war you cannot fight it on several fronts ? So, an economic war had begun and over sea's Manufacturing began. Company's invest to secure a competitive market ?

    Oh, wait did I say Invest Hmmm ? Partnering with China has led to a much debated debauchery. Joe Average to save a buck just went along with it without a real warning from the Government. In fact I think encouraged.

    Hmmmn (now) those who are in Congress and Senate have to Invest there money. What is an average salary as a Statesman ? It would not be wise to just let it set and draw a modest interest rate while others are in a Gold rush.

    So, they Pick the leading money makers to invest heavily. why ? Because they know someone on Wall street who is leading those horses to water.

    Where might you say is the best Investment now that you have secured Joe Average into buying at Wall mart. Who he has spent his money elsewhere (encouraged into a 2-1 buy down) and now is running on credit cards just like his Government.

    These insidious diseases to in slave all who are willing to step into the trap.

    The pitfalls were laid and no one was willing to expose the Truth.

    No one and yet everyone is to Blame. When you mess with the Bull you get the horns.

    It's the running of the Bulls. Meanwhile we are in the streets as they drink Champagne from a window seat. (Laughing)

    Does anyone know why so many Credit Card Address's in the District of Columbia ? Diplomatic Immunity ?

    kv
     
  15. Willbe

    Willbe New Member

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  16. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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    I think we, the people, would have been better served if the lawmakers would have looked at the cause of this whole mess, and used the money to prevent future problems. Let the lenders take the sting for their poor judgment. The people writing the loans had to know a good portion of the loans would fail, and I believe they made sure they got a sufficient return before that happened. These companies and banks are going to fail, just lose profits, which the government just agreed to cover. The big boys need to be knocked down, so the smaller businesses, and new ones have a chance. More competition, will make things more affordable for the consumer, and companies will be more careful with their assets.
    I'd like to find a copy of that bail-out planned they just signed to download. Just kind of curious about the 400+ pages, and what sort of stuff got slipped in. Wonder what kind of controls and demands our government will use when handing out my tax dollars. Hopefully they aren't just going just pass it out to anybody who asks for it. Is it a one time deal, or can the same business keep asking for more?
     
  17. jpanhalt

    jpanhalt Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    I read this morning that it was about 30% ($150billion) pork. I'm with you. If anyone has a link, I would love to read it.

    John
     
  18. killivolt

    killivolt Well-Known Member

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    I told my wife mark my words when everyone was running to these loans they will not have the ability to pay them. Only because most of them trusted way to much and lack the experience to handle their finances and I said most will go Bankrupt ?

    I never would have even had the sense of knowing where it would lead.

    But it did feel like the era of failed S.L's.


    kv

    Edit:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/28/bailout-legislation-full_n_130063.html
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2008
  19. Mikebits

    Mikebits Well-Known Member

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    It seems as though Wall Street is having a far reaching affect.

     
  20. HarveyH42

    HarveyH42 Banned

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  21. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    They way I understand it some banks outside the US were playing the same stupid games that got some US banks in trouble.
     

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