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Any one looked at Gm fuel-cel car

Discussion in 'Alternative Energy' started by be80be, Sep 11, 2009.

  1. be80be

    be80be Well-Known Member

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    I think there headed in the right way I been playing with this Ideal to.
    I was thinking of battery powered DC motors
    [​IMG]
    Hydrogen powered generator

    I would like to see your ideals
     
  2. Coligny

    Coligny New Member

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    ?!

    !?

    No wait... it's more like

    .
     
  3. magickaldan

    magickaldan New Member

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    What would be your source of hydrogen?
     
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. smanches

    smanches New Member

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    Typically it's natural gas or propane that is run through a converter in real time. I've seen some put an actual hydrogen tank on them.

    This company has been one of the leaders in hydrogen fuel cells for well over a decade now. Just been having trouble getting people to adopt them, and trying to fight all the frivolous lawsuits being brought against them by oil companies.

    Hydrogen Fuel Cell Technology, Hydrogen Power in Buses | Ballard Power

    Another huge use of these is in Japan. They are small, and produce enough heat for electricity for a small apartment/house. Put a natural gas converter in front of it and you have a constant flow of hydrogen with very little waste.
     
  6. Coligny

    Coligny New Member

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    Waou... less than 10 messages and it's already conspiracy time.

    As for Japan... No... just not at all... or come here to show me. I'd be happy to be shown wrong.
    I know, saying "in japan they..." is the usual thread winner with the undefeated barrier language making any kind of verification impossible. Japan is excessively loud mouthed aboot environnement. But do really little. They are at least 30 to 40 years behind for energy management in the house. (isolation is still unknown science). And everytime they start doing something in the good direction -with the 40 years lag i mean- they brag aboot being on top and how everybody should copy them. They are awefull in the research dept. They are good for copy and production optimisation. Then hopefully we have the chinese to bring the cost down.
     
  7. smanches

    smanches New Member

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    Simple google search got too many hits to post. Here's one stating Ballard was pulling out of the Japanese co-generation market.

    2009-06-03 Fortnightly Newsletter - Fuel Cell Today

    If you were to read all of the press releases from Ballard in the 90s, there were plenty about patent lawsuits being brought up by the oil companies.

    I don't make **** up, although I am wrong at times. This is not one of those times. To state something is a certain way without knowing is ignorance. To state something is a certain way by proving it is diligence.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2009
  8. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    When the fuel cell vehicles can pull a 12000# trailer at interstate speeds for 300 - 400 miles between fills and be filled in 10 minutes or lees at a common station then I will be interested in the technology.
    Until then runty clown cars that have the same or less lifetime costs per mile equivalents to a properly designed and built standard vehicle that costs half as much doesn't appeal to me one bit. :(

    When the size and power is there and the cost outlay for a life expectancy of 15 -20 years while traveling some 200 - 250 thousand miles works out to be cheaper than a standard vehicle of equal comparison thats when I will take far more serious interests! :)

    Sorry but they just dont fit my life at this point. I am sticking with my 4+ ton propane burner for now. ;)
     
  9. blueroomelectronics

    blueroomelectronics Well-Known Member

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    What ever happened to propane cars? A fair amount of (stinky exhaust) taxis had them here in Toronto several years ago. All gone now.
    [​IMG]
     
  10. Nigel Goodwin

    Nigel Goodwin Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    There were a number of gas powered conversions in the UK, you had to have the car modified and a gas tank fitted, as well as the original petrol tank. A number of petrol stations also had gas pumps, and it was considerably cheaper to run on gas.

    Just did a quick google - it's called LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) - and there are still a number of vehicles available either built with it, and conversions available.

    I just ran my car through this site The Greenfuel Company - About LPG - LPG - The Established Alternative Fuel and it claims it would save me £478 per year on fuel costs.
     
  11. blueroomelectronics

    blueroomelectronics Well-Known Member

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    Problem with LPG is what happens when you run out of gas?
    Can't use a Jerrycan as it's non pressurized.
     
  12. be80be

    be80be Well-Known Member

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    Diesel-electric pulls hundred's of tons Power is not the thing to worry about.
    What I been looking for is how much power a hydrogen fueled generator can put out.
    I found this not really any thing I didn't no I'll quote it any ways
    See i'm thinking of recharging and for uphill power when needed and making my own fuel.

    Tmc I don't need to pull 6 tons 300miles would be nice most of my work is done with my brain so all my car needs to haul is 300 pounds of me and 1ton of car lol
     
  13. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    Thats what they put the gas gages in the dash for. To let you know when you need to get more fuel. ;)

    How often do you run out of fuel any way. The last time I did was many years ago when a fuel line split and dumped the last off my fuel on the way to town. :(

    Modern dual fuel systems typically have the propane tank gauge wired into the dash so when you switch from one fuel to the other the gauge reads the right tank.
    And a 20# propane cylinder and a hose with the right fittings make a nice 5 gallon propane Jerry can!

    Also propane does not just run out like gasoline does. When the liquid is used up you still have the tank full of pressurized vapor. When you do run out of liquid the engine will loose power at first and simply bog when the peddle is stepped on. You will just keep loosing power as the vapor pressure drops. When the first bog occurs and with a conservative driving approach I can get 15+ miles more out of my vapor alone. Or I just flip the switch and run on gasoline then.;)

    The propane exhaust smell comes from poorly tuned or weak engines with low compression. The early emissions compliant engines from the late 70's to the late 80's had low compression and mild cam profiles that contributed to incomplete combustion of the propane and thats why they had the strong smell.
    Any modern engine that is properly tuned and set up propane or dual fuel vehicle has no different exhaust smell than gasoline and even less than typical diesels if everything is working properly. :)

    Non of the three pickups I have ran on propane had any exhaust smell once tuned properly.
     
  14. smanches

    smanches New Member

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    I thought the bad exhaust smell was from the smelly stuff (forget what it is) they put in propane so you can smell it?

    Forklifts were the only things I've driven which ran on propane. I doubt I could get to town and back with one of those. :p
     
  15. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The smelly stuff is Ethyl Mircaptane. It takes higher combustion pressures to properly burn it to the point it looses its smell in an engine application. Pure propane has no smell same as pure hydrogen and pure natural gas.
     
  16. be80be

    be80be Well-Known Member

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    No that not what makes a stink it's ethyl mercaptan leave the E off
     
  17. Coligny

    Coligny New Member

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    LPG is massively used in japanese taxis. But quite unpopular for cars that are stored in garages. Since they tend to explose in a Jerry Bruckenheimer kind of way. (Forbidden in underground parkings at least in france, fire dept asked that the LPG cars be identified clearly since they are excessively dangerous for the crews trying to put out the fire, needs more a bombsquad than firemen)
     
  18. Mr RB

    Mr RB Well-Known Member

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    The chance of "bleve" (pressurised gas cylinder exploding) is very low unless if it the gas cylinder itself that is leaking and burning the escaping gases causing a hot spot right at the leak.

    In an underground car park the gasoline tanks of the regular cars will explode much more likely in terms of a big fire there (it's almost guaranteed) while the pressurised gas cylinders will remain sealed and safe until the temperature gets to the point of actually melting the thick high-pressure steel of the cylinder itself, which is unlikely.

    It's one of those deals that SOUNDS really scary so some comittee decision maker bans the item, even though it is a very low risk of actually happening.
     
  19. Coligny

    Coligny New Member

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    I know it's the intarweb and arguing is useless. But on your side you have theories, on my side I have dead firemen and proposed legislation doing their ways...

    video explosion d'un reservoir GPL de voiture - feu, pompier, voiture - videos Ma-Tvideo France3

    And here last june ONE gpl railcar derail, 2 building destroyed and 13 dead.

    Un wagon de GPL explose en Italie: 13 morts et 35 blessés graves - Libération

    Yeah, regular gas could have burned too. Nonetheless... GPL/LPG is quite dangerous. And you statement of very low chances of explosion is downright wrong.
     
  20. tcmtech

    tcmtech Well-Known Member Most Helpful Member

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    The actual DOT and other international and federal safety regulations on pressurized fuel tanks have about 20 times the safety requirements built into the tanks than what your typical vehicle has on its gasoline or diesel fuel tank.
    The most common leak is from poor maintenance or improper line and or line fittings having been used by cheap home conversions. I have seen and fixed more than a few. And even then a line or fitting leak is easily stopped just by turning off the supply valve on the tank.

    An actual high pressure fuel tank will not ever actually explode in any realistic conditions. It will build up pressure and vent in a controlled fashion and rate. ;)
    In vehicle applications the vent port itself is required to blow the venting gasses up and away from the vehicle. This greatly reduces the actual radiant heat effects returned to the vehicle and tank should the gas be ignited.
    Should a venting tank be ignited its would only need a quick shower of cold water to reduce the internal pressure to the point the vent closes and extinguishes the flame.;):)

    A burning gasoline or diesel tank wont do that if its been heated up hot enough to be boiling the fuel out. The burning liquid fuel will just float on the water and move to other places where its not wanted like down drains or under other vehicles which have their fuel tanks mounted underneath. :eek:

    The safety horror mythes about pressurized fuel systems are almost beyond Hollywood levels of gross exaggeration.:mad:
     
  21. Mr RB

    Mr RB Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if there are any large powerful corporate interests that might have something to gain from making LPG less popular??? Nah probably not.
    ;)

    Reminds me of that a-hole Edison publicly electrocuting horses and elephants with AC to show how "dangerous" it was. Of course he was promoting public safety, nothing at all to do with the fact that the competition Westinghouse used AC and Edison's company was using DC.
     

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