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! Android + FLASH

Discussion in 'Computers and Networks' started by 3v0, Jul 5, 2012.

  1. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    I would advise staying away from android if you want to was any content requiring adobe flash player.

    The flash 11 for my Xoom does not even work properly with android 4. It seems the neglected to set it up to use the graphics accelerator hardware. It worked great with android 3 and an earlier version of flash.
     
  2. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    Flash is proprietary software which is becoming obsoleted by HTML5 implementations as well as an industry wide paradigm shift (true paradigm shift) to mobile, somewhat like the RealPlayers codecs were years ago to streaming audio, it will just take time for the market to shift towards fuller HTML5 specifications that supplement it's current functions.

    If you really get right down to it, the entire basis of an 'app' on Android or IPhone or whatever platform is yet to come (Think FireFox OS coming soon...) is to remove the need for this type of proprietary software and supplement it with a proprietary media consumption platform.

    Anyone that requires flash functionality in their devices is overlooking the current trends in programming and will be obsoleted right along with the software as it's phased out in preference for better platforms. Flash is criminally HORRIBLY inefficient from a programming perspective and has no place outside of legacy support for mobile platforms.

    Keep in mind this isn't Adobe bashing. THEY chose to abandon it, not the market...

    Flash more than likely won't even exist except as a side note in 5 years, Adobe has new products that they're basing their continued success on, but it's a rough market. I've said it a few times now, but it will be an interesting next few years (10) in the consumer computing industry.
     
  3. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    I do not really care who is to blame. It is bad news to be selling products that are non-functional within six months of sale. I do not recommend any android based tablet for this reason.
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  4. dave

    Dave New Member

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  5. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    Because it won't use flash? This means non functional? 3v0, I find your premise for 'non-functional' criminally inept.

    Since when was a devices properties defined on it's support for flash?
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  6. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    Yeah lets just say I am an idiot and you are an[MODNOTE]Deleted[/MODNOTE] and leave it at that.
    If we are going to start passing around insults why not be a man about it and break the rules instead of ducking them !

    I am tired of your[MODNOTE] Deleted[/MODNOTE].
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 7, 2012
  7. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    I'm sorry you feel that way 3v0, but no insult was intended. FLASH on mobile/embedded platforms is obsolete, Adobe itself is killing support not the Android OS or it's device/software makers. Flash itself will not exist in 2-3 years, Adobe knows it's ridden that horse into the ground regardless of how many flash games you can find on the web today.

    You're blaming Android for Adobe itself intentionally yanking support.

    HTML5 has built in support for streaming video/audio and graphics/game type support will follow with time. Adobe itself has embraced HTML5

    http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2011/08/02/adobe-embraces-html5/
    http://www.webpronews.com/adobe-cs6-detailed-embraces-html5-2012-04


    You can find many many more articles just like this with a simple Google search.
    Adobe embracing the proprietary inefficient platform that was flash doesn't make good business sense... Anymore. It served them well in the past and they know it's time has come.

    I'm ducking nothing, I stand behind every word I say and have said in this thread insomuch as the future of Adobe's 'Flash' platform and for no other reason, I am deeply sorry that you have felt slighted on the matter or offended in any way, but I will not retract my previous statements as a matter of my perception of the information I have come across as a matter of simple fact.

    If this offends you I believe I have said all I can to rectify that and recommend that we simply cease to discuss the matter.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  8. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    What I said was

    In contrast to what you said I did not indicate who was to blame.

    Blame whoever you see fit but the problem is real.
     
  9. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    Really?

    No Android tablet sold is non-functional within six months of sale. Adobe the actual maker of the software yanked support for ALL mobile platforms, this includes Apple's products. You're directly shying users away from Android based on a third party software makers decision... You're directly blaming Android for Adobe's decision in black and white.

    Flash will be replaced with Adobe AIR by the way which will force any developers that want to write for PC and mobile applications to purchase AIR development software which will run on virtually all platforms. HTML5 will replace the previous 'niche' markets primarily simple streaming video, dynamic graphics ect..

    Current makers of flash games will drop Flash like a 55 gallon drum of nuclear waste for AIR. It will likely be phased out of Adobe's product line and integrated (in a much saner manner) within the next few years. Once again, the basic streaming video and dynamic web page sector will flock to HTML5.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2012
  10. DerStrom8

    DerStrom8 Super Moderator Most Helpful Member

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    Scead, I promised myself I wouldn't get involved in this argument, but I wanted to draw your attention to 3v0's very first statement:

     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2012
  11. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    Although games were not on my mind when I created the original post they are effected too. I was thinking of major video suppliers like amazon prime, hulu and youtube.

    I started this thread to warn people and that has been accomplished. It does not matter who is at fault when people are shopping, they want to buy what works.

    Hulu improves its player, commits to Flash
    It seems that flash is being pulled without a suitable replacement. If you want to take this as me blaming somebody fine. It is a bit more complex then that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  12. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    Thank your for drawing my attention to that I read it, the reasons for ignoring it are outlined bellow.


    Adobe AIR will supplant flash in mobile browsers as their mobile platform, it's Adobe's current cross platform developing environment of which flash will now only be a part of.

    Adobe discontinued support for flash player browser plugin for mobile browsers only, not flash as an entity, it will now be encapsulated within AIR, and will still work on mobile devices just not in the same context as flash is typically embedded in websites nowdays, it will be more of Adobe's method of embedding their own app development technology across multiple mobile and PC platforms.

    Basically it will work like FLASH, only more app centric. If you write an AIR app, it will cross compile on every platform that Adobe codes runtimes for, just like flash but different in appearance and core goals.

    Hulu, Amazon Instant Video, Youtube, Netflix and pretty much any other streaming video services already have native apps on Android, flash is not required for any of them, and again as far as interactive web content goes Flash will still probably be around but because Adobe ditched mobile flash support you're going to see hordes of developers drop it in favor of HTML5 for basic dynamic content graphics and interactive elements as well as video.

    If you would read this one article and this link if you would like to continue to read, they will mirror this post almost exactly..

    There is NO reason of any kind whatsoever to avoid Android/Apple or any other mobile device because of Adobe's decision to not support browser flash on mobile platforms regardless of who's at fault for the decision. Because all the services that 'rely' on flash already have or are developing the native mobile apps for their services, HTML makes the 'pretties' that used to require flash redundant, and Flash Player is being solidly aimed at the gaming and mid end graphics applications for PC's.
     
  13. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    First it was HTML5 now it is AIR.

    Last I checked amazon did not have a mobile app. Hulu has one but it is only provided with hulu+.

    nuff said
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  14. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    Yeah, what about the dedicated Hulu app for Android 3v0? I didn't say Amazon produced a mobile app, only that there were native apps that would allow you access to their content. PlayonMobile allows basic Hulu accessibility along with a dozen other services.

    Look up PlayonMobile for Android, that's just one example.

    You're up to your shin right now eating your own foot.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  15. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    I am not in this to inflate my ego. I would be happy as a lark to see this stuff work.

    The Hulu App for Android only works if you pay them $8 a month.

    PlayOnMobile requires that you run a server on a PC to connect to the portable via wifi, and if I recall correctly it is not free. At best a patch.

    I have not tasted toejam yet :)

    Keep looking
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2012
  16. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    What's that got to do with anything? Don't you know that the entire reason that these mobile platforms are taking off is because of the nickles and dimes they're going to get out of us? Even PC software is starting to lean towards a free to play (but you gotta pay if you want it all right away or get stuck with ads)

    The only reason I mentioned playonmobile is because it's the only app I could find that supported Amazon's Instant Video service, which I'm sure they will eventually release a stand alone app of their own, they're not going to let people cut in on their racket! ;)

    Flash as it was known on the PC is changing into something that is no longer useful on mobile platforms. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to suggest that people avoid Android devices based on flash browser add on no longer working on them. Especially considering it will no longer work on Apple's products, or ANYONE's mobile platforms (outside of course full featured tablets that run PC software)

    I didn't think you were trying to inflate your ego, but your statement to suggest people avoid Android products in particular, and then your outburst after my reply saying that 'it's bad news to sell a product that's non-functional in 6 months' was totally absurd and showed very clearly that you have no knowledge what's going on in the mobile/PC software development world just now.

    The software development world is in the midst of a massive upheaval right now! This is only one smidgen of a sign of it, changes are occurring across the board in rapid succession. Apple kick started it with the idea of the 'app' and a store to sell them, and the entire world is now riding that bandwagon and giving Apple some serious competition, Android being the biggest portion of it right now.

    Others will follow, as Mozilla is developing Firefox OS which will be for smartphone/tablet systems to be released next year sometime (which also won't support a browser version of flash)
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2012
  17. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    What does that have to do with anything ? What used to work, Hulu non subscription and amazon prime, does not now. SOMETHING IS BROKEN !

    It is still bad news to sell a product that is less functional after six months.
    The hardware vendors need to sync up with the software people and get this fixed. I do not really care if it is via flash, HTML5, or AIR.

    I have subscriptions to amazon and Netflix so I understand how the market works.

    At the time of my original post I did not realize that Apple ipad was also effected. Perhaps the moderators can change the title to reflect that problem too.

    Android and FireFox OS conjunction with numerous mobile hardware platforms has made this a difficult areas. But as a consumer... I only only want the ditty I purchased to continue delivering the content it was able to deliver when I first purchased it.
     
  18. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    You seem to be under the impression that Android tablets are supposed to be exactly the same as PC's and everything that works on them HAS to work on these mobile devices, the mobile market is different regardless of what you think it should be capable of.

    This is the second time you've said this and it's not true. You're blaming the people that make the hardware for something a third party software maker did, there is nothing the hardware people could have possibly done to have prevented this, the market is changing and users are going to have to change along with it, if you don't like it sell your Xoom and buy a true tablet PC because what you want simply will not occur.

    You obviously purchased an Android device with expectations that are higher than the industry is willing to provide.

    That won't happen for a good 5 years or more takes too long for industry to adapt and the market right now is full of vultures and sharks trying to bite off anything they can get their jaws on. If Microsoft hadn't adapted quickly with the way it's handling Windows 8 (which I think they're doing a fantastic job of) Microsoft could have gone out of buisness within 10 years.

    The market is going to be incredibly chaotic for years as companies try things and see what does and does not work, and people will not be shut out. But you should never have expected a mobile browse to perform every single last function of a full system browser they're different platforms. Adobe HAD to do this to flash, because they can't hold a candle to dedicated apps and they know it, which is where the AIR platform came from, only time will tell if Adobe has any ground to stand on, but again that will take a couple years.

    That's too bad unfortunately it can't happen in todays market things are changing too dynamically and everyone is trying to position themselves to gain as much as possible when the new order settles down.

    The software/hardware market was stagnating and Apple was getting to big a piece of the pie until Android came along, the competition is good because it will see where the real need/want for various functionality in these devices will go, competition is good! It drives costs down, and creates more services that people want.

    I can understand your feelings on flash but that was based on an expectation that can't be met in the current market, the little ditty you purchased can still deliver the same content, though you may have to go about it in different ways. There will never be a single market where everything works on one single thing, though HTML5 will help with that there's still going to have to be multiple devices you need to do all of what you want.

    Compare it to the video game console market, arguably the hardware of the top contenders is pretty good, the only reason why so many system exist right now though is because each type of system has exclusive content and a few niche features that no other system can provide. If you want to play Super Mario Brothers games you have to buy a Nintendo Console, if you want to play Time Crisis 4 you HAVE to own a PS3. If you want to play Halo you have to own an xbox.

    This is the way it will be forever, and the mobile device markets is going to diverge juts like the console market already has, content providers are going to have a heck of a time in the coming years trying to get their stuff to work on everything and the whole game could shift if major chunks of content delivery services favor one side or another (which I don't see happening)

    Basically what this is doing to the market is forcing Hardware/operating system developers to actually.... develope, the entire concept of a completely new OS that could come to market and be popular immediately would have been a ludicrous thought just 7 years ago.

    I've been keeping an eye on Microsoft and with Windows 8 RT (Windows 8 that runs on ARM based processors) coming out soon and their recent purchases of companies they're positioning themselves to be a real power house in the future in the mobile market, with the 900lb Gorilla power to upset the apple/Android universe within the next 2-3 years.

    I've been following this stuff with a greater curiosity because I've been wishing the entire industry would go to a RISC based processors for going on 12 years now, and the change is happening fast now! Although Intel is reacting as well so PC's aren't going anywhere any time soon, but it amazes me the changes that have occurred in just the last 5 years. With the various abstraction layers that have been created (programming and API layers) hardware and software developers have suddenly been put into a position where virtually anything is possible skies the limit with the way technology is right now with the amount of power they can put into devices.

    This is the paradigm shift, the speed of the hardware is so great now it's creating a fundamental change in the software and realization that simple software isn't what it's all about, it's who controls the content that people consume, and more importantly figuring out how much people are willing to pay for that content. In the end the consumer will win because the competition will drive prices to the point where margins will be relatively low (the margins on the new Nexus 7 Android tablet are so small I'm not surprised if Google is eating a little bit of the cost of it just to get it's devices into more common use and I'm buying it!), but if you don't try to compete by advancing things and finding out what people really want you'll fall by the wayside completly.

    Just look at the hardware specs on the Nexus 7. I never in my entire life would have guessed that much power could be put into a persons hands for less than 300 dollars, and it's just going to continue to go up!

    Really what the whole industry needs is new software products and different types of content that will really draw users in to the mobile platforms in a meaninful way and that's pretty much what everyone is doing right now is trying pretty much anything they can think of to give themselves a niche, when the masses take interest and decide to flock hundreds of millions of dollars can be created in months on products and services that simply weren't even thought of less than 6 months ago.

    This is why I was upset and I why I commented so verbosely on this thread, as I'm a big fan of Android, not necessarily for what means as an operating system for mobile devices, but for what it has helped create and how little ole Google has managed to spark massive growth towards innovation. Sure it's going to have hiccups, but even if I'm not around to see the fruition of everything that is happening today in the mobile/pc market I am for the first time in the last 15 years confident that things are mixed up to the point where it's exciting to watch this stuff again!

    When I started paying attention to PC's/software when I was in my teens it was exciting, and then every year it was just the same thing, increase the version number, new shiny buttons, a few practical bonuses here or there but never anything fundamentally new. Now I eat up every bit of news I can on the digital marketplace I can find, because for the first time in 15 years, there's something fundamentally new to read!

    Years down the road there will be the note of Apple sparking the revolution that has become the mobile device renaissance, but Google is going to be known as the company that truly set fire to the industry with Android, even if in the end Android no longer exists.

    There's been a recent dip in the acceleration towards mobile computing so the investors are a little hesitant right now, but the field is set for anything and everything to happen.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2012
  19. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    The expectation is for my tablet to do what it did when it was purchased.

    And that is exactly why I started this thread !
     
  20. Sceadwian

    Sceadwian Banned

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    But you've overlooked the fact that the industry and people's demands are changing. No one really cares about flash as long as the content is still available, and it still in general is.

    And for the... fourth time now? You're expecting the device maker to control the companies that write software for it, this has never been the case and never will be the case. Adobe ditched flash on mobile platforms to bend that market advantage into more of it's products (which still include flash)

    Keep in mind, if you have flash running on your Xoom right now, that particular version if it will continue to work until you encounter flash content that is incompatible (due to Adobe itself not mobile device makers)

    I'm equally as sure that the availability of the current version of mobile flash versions for each OS will receiver a healthy does of underground support.

    Here are all the reference links I could find in 45 seconds to support my statements, can you post anything to support yours?

    http://ossguy.com/?p=1037
    http://www.foliosnap.com/whynotflash.php
    http://onsoftware.en.softonic.com/do...tter-on-mobile
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...sh-mobile-dead
    http://www.coreysmith.ws/blog/3-reasons-why-flash-sucks
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2012
  21. 3v0

    3v0 Coop Build Coordinator Forum Supporter

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    Final Post.

    The fact that the product is based on android does not excuse what has happened here.
     

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