A heads-up on part suppliers

[btcg]

Spent the day unpacking and putting away several parts shipments I'd ordered of late.

One of the packages was a pack of 10 npn transistors I'd ordered from All Electronics (allelectronics.com), Catalog # MPSA06-HM

As AE will do, it lists the part number as being essentially the same: MPSA06

Having different drawers (I use those plastic wall units with 50 small plastic tray/compartments), I wanted to see whether I could toss them in with the generic npn's (like the 2n3904). So I popped open my trusty (even if it's 14 years old) NTE crossbook and crossed it.

To my surprise, the transistor crossed to an NTE 287: a 300v transistor.

Now, I'm immediately suspicious. The transistor in front of me is in a TO-92 case. Although there are many higher voltage transistors in that package, I thought I'd better take a look at one of the actual transistors, and verify.

Lo & behold, the number on transistors is different: 1103ca

Again, refering to my trusty cross book, I look up the 1103 (from experience I knew, it's actually 2n1103), and find that this transistor is actually equivilient to the NTE 123ap, a 75 v transistor (a famous one, at that)

75v vs 300v: a pretty big difference.

Now, in fairness, for the low voltage circuits I'll be using them in (24 volts & below), this error is no real issue.

But had a friend brought over an old tv with a video problem, using that transistor might have ended up in smoke.

The lesson here: beware of these surplus vendors, and always verify their cross-referencing.

 

[mneary]

You have fallen into the famous cross reference back trace trap. You must always confirm from a second source when you back trace the NTE tables. It's big trouble if you don't. The Fairchild MPSA06 is an 80V transistor. As you claim, 1103ca is 75V. (EDIT: And you assume that the house number 1103ca is actually a 'famous' generic number that I cannot validate on the net.)

NTE is free to supply a 300V transistor to replace either one of them, but that does NOT obligate all makers of MPSA06 and 1103ca to convert their lines to 300V.

This is not the fault of All Electronics. You should only use your NTE book for the purpose that it was intended.

 

[btcg]

You must always confirm from a second source when you back trace the NTE tables. It's big trouble if you don't.

I totally agree, and in a pinch, say: on a Sunday, with an old set and friend who didn't care, and no other option, it's conceivable that I might have tried using it.

But, I conceded that in the post, eh?

Let's read on:

The Fairchild MPSA06 is an 80V transistor. As you claim, 1103ca is 75V.

The 2n1103 is a "75v" transistor, you say? Looks like you made the same mistake, as according to American Microsemiconductor, Inc., it's about half of that:

**broken link removed**

(EDIT: And you assume that the house number 1103ca is actually a 'famous' generic number that I cannot validate on the net.)

I realize that english isn't the first language of many posters here (and possibly, yourself), so I'll state it again, and demonstrate:

Me: "and find that this transistor is actually equivilient to the NTE 123ap, a 75 v transistor (a famous one, at that)"

The statement calls the ECG/NTE 123a (and ap) "a famous one" ; not the 2n1103

An experimenter may not be familiar with it, but any professional tech who has worked in a service shop working on commercial units will know it well.

This is not the fault of All Electronics. You should only use your NTE book for the purpose that it was intended.

Here, I will disagree 100%, and perhaps it's a language issue, and you simply did not understand.

All Electronics labeled the package as containing the transistors: MPSA06

They were NOT.

They were actually: 2n1103

That IS their fault.

They didn't do the most basic check (as I did)

Look at the number printed on the device!

 

[mneary]

The number printed on the device is of no use to you. It is a house number. I worked for 36 years where we used house numbers, and our MPSA06 were marked W622. What would your NTE book say about that (after you removed and added numbers and letters as you pleased)?

Even so, the fact that the NTE1103A (75V) can replace the 2N1103(35V) does not make the 2N1103 equivalent to the NTE1103A. This is the second fault in your logic.

All Electronics labeled the package as containing the transistors: MPSA06
They were NOT.

You have no proof.

 

[btcg]

The number printed on the device is of no use to you. It is a house number.

Next:

You have no proof.


You haven't seen the transistors in question.

Who has no proof????

 

[pfofit]

As AE will do, it lists the part number as being essentially the same: MPSA06 <snip>So I popped open my trusty (even if it's 14 years old) NTE crossbook and crossed it.

To my surprise, the transistor crossed to an NTE 287: a 300v transistor.

Like mneary has tried to explain. You/one can only trust an NTE catalog if you use the (overpriced) suggested NTE part (maybe not even then).
Just 'cause two transistor cross to an identical NTE part# does not mean that those two transistors are compatible/interchangeable.

NTE is free to supply a 300V transistor to replace either one of them, but that does NOT obligate all makers of MPSA06 and 1103ca to convert their lines to 300V.

In addition, nor does it mean that the MPSA06 is interchangeable with the illusive 1103CA

<snip>Lo & behold, the number on transistors is different: 1103ca.
Again, refering to my trusty cross book, I look up the 1103 (from experience I knew, it's actually 2n1103), and find that this transistor is actually equivilient to the NTE 123ap, a 75 v transistor (a famous one, at that)

75v vs 300v: a pretty big difference.

There's that word 'trust' again in reference to a NTE book. You cannot use the NTE book to compare two different components.

I could find no cross for an 2n1103 in my many old nte books, But I did find this. Eventually.
2N1103 Si npn 125mW 45V 35V 1V 20mA 150>C 12MHz 3 30/65 TI TO5 Low Power General Purpose BFY50 2N2297 KT630G

If believed, besides a much lower voltage ratings of both the mpsa06 and NTE287, it shows 3 replacements.
I've entered the nte Equiv's

BFY50=NTE128 TO-39
2N2297=NTE128 TO-39 or NTE123ap TO-92
KT630G=NTE324 TO-39

So take your pick!!

But had a friend brought over an old tv with a video problem, using that transistor might have ended up in smoke.

If you use a NTE book the way your implying, then you will have a lot of smoke over time.

The lesson here: beware of these surplus vendors, and always verify their cross-referencing.

Why don't you contact the supplier and ask them to fix it and give you the MPSA06 that you ordered? Peoples do make mistakes. Hard to believe eh?

If the weirdo 1103ca that they gave is really an oldie 2n1103 like you think, then they have subbed a 45 Vcb transistor for a 80 Vcb(mpsa06) transistor. Not to mention, an Ic of 20 ma for a 500ma and 12 Mhz for a 100 Mhz. Essentially every parameter is different.

The lessen is. One needs to consult original# datasheet for specs and not use NTE as a bible.

 

[mneary]

Why don't you contact the supplier and ask them to fix it and give you the MPSA06 that you ordered? Peoples do make mistakes. Hard to believe eh?

It isn't likely a mistake. The supplier clearly stated what was for sale, and they show a clear photograph of a TO-92 marked 1103ca. They say 1103ca is a house number for MPSA06, and I say adding 2N in front of a house number doesn't make it a wimpy obsolete TO-5 transistor.

If anyone can somehow prove that my W622's are not MPSA06, then I'll entertain that All's 1103ca might be something other than MPSA06.

 

[pfofit]

It isn't likely a mistake. The supplier clearly stated what was for sale, and they show a clear photograph of a TO-92 marked 1103ca. They say 1103ca is a house number for MPSA06, and I say adding 2N in front of a house number doesn't make it a wimpy obsolete TO-5 transistor.

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't think about going to that website. I wish I had:

You are correct. There is probably no way that those are the archaic 2n equivalent.

Maybe they are just what they say they are. Nevertheless, he got exactly what he ordered.
bctg, if you had linked to your purchase like this, things would have been so much clearer.

One of the packages was a pack of 10 npn transistors I'd ordered from All Electronics (allelectronics.com), Catalog # MPSA06-HM
As AE will do, it lists the part number as being essentially the same: MPSA06

It all makes sense now. He didn't order a mpsa06 an get a MPSA06-HM, like he implied, he ordered a 1103ca disguised as one.
And no bctg, my english is just fine.
cheers

 

[btcg]

Thanks for the clarification. I didn't think about going to that website. I wish I had:

You are correct. There is probably no way that those are the archaic 2n equivalent.

Maybe they are just what they say they are. Nevertheless, he got exactly what he ordered.
bctg, if you had linked to your purchase like this, things would have been so much clearer.
It all makes sense now. He didn't order a mpsa06 an get a MPSA06-HM, like he implied, he ordered a 1103ca disguised as one.
And no bctg, my english is just fine.
cheers

Sorry guys, but my head isn't so big that I wouldn't admit to making a mistake. But the problem is, I honestly don't think I did.

I did a little detective work of my own, and also looked at their site again.

What I recall ordering was the package beside the MPSA06, the generic NPN - TO-92 transistor.

What they sent was a package of the (supposedly) MPSA06.

That week, in addition to the $180.00 worth of components from All Electronics, I ordered a package from Pulse Electronics (Laminator & supplies), about $200.00 worth of components from Digi-Key, about $100.00 worth of components from the Electronic Goldmine. I also found out that Forrest Mims had re-issued his original "Engineers Notebook". So I bought that too, and 4 of his other books from Amazon. I found Omni on the web (I decided to buy a new soldering station, and other stuff), and spent another $90.00 with them (by the way, that order still hasn't shipped, and if I don't get some good answers tomorrow, I'm canceling it). More later, below.

So, when I started unpacking everything and got to the AE transistors, something clicked in my mind as to an error. It wasn't until I read the posts that I went back and looked at their site, and realized that what really set off the red flag was that they'd made yet another error.

Now, I'm a "show me" kinda guy. So I'll show you somethings after I explain.

My AE order wasn't my first. I've ordered 5 different times from AE over the years. Four times in the 1990's, and once, currently.

EVERY order shipped an incorrect item. I think it's deliberate. They want to make money. In fact, I'd forgotten this (it had been 12 years since my last order from them), but on my last order prior to this, I'd actually called them and complained. They apologized, and sent me a refund slip:


**broken link removed**

Check out the date: 1996

So, considering that AE sent me incorrect parts the previous 4 times, I have to trust my instincts here: they screwed up again.

Now, the question is, what is this part?

Given AE's track record, and my own semiconductor experience, I believe my own eyes: it's not "house marked." It's a real 2n1103.

Now, as to other purchases: I bought a Craftsman 10 in drill press, a nice set of Korg screw drivers (I can't find my old Xcelite set), a nice Wilton vise, and probably another $150.00 worth of incidentals for my new electronic workshop (I'll be happy to post pics).

My wife was looking hard at the charges on my Ccards the other day, but didn't say much. When I was a tech, I made good money, but nowhere near what I've made writing software, so it's cool to be able to equip myself like this. I couldn't have justified it on my tech's salary.

 

[kchriste]

Given AE's track record, and my own semiconductor experience, I believe my own eyes: it's not "house marked." It's a real 2n1103.

If you believe your own eyes, you'll see that a real 2n1103 comes in a TO5 case and NOT a TO92 case:

MPSA06 transistor. Small NPN power and signal transistor. TO92 plastic package. This is a "house-marked" part, stamped 1103CA. Taped, ammo-pack packaging. 10 piece minimum.

What you received was in a TO92 case, right?



***

 

[btcg]

If you believe your own eyes, you'll see that a real 2n1103 comes in a TO5 case and NOT a TO92 case:

What you received was in a TO92 case, right?



***

A 2n would be a National Semiconductor (Japanese) design, eh?

Why would you post anything other than that datasheet?

 

[btcg]

kchriste,

Don't worry, I'll stand by while you look up and discover National Semiconductor's contribution.

You may also find that Matshusta(spelled right?)/Panasonic/etc's contributions are tremendus.

NOW: I think mcneary was right, but inaccurate.

As I recall, we had a National Semiconductor cross book in all of our shops at Sears. Think I'll send away for one.

 

[kchriste]

What makes you think that National Semiconductor is a Japanese company? Japanese transistors usually start with 2SA, 2SB, 2SC, 2SD, etc.

Why don't YOU post a datasheet showing the 2N1103 in a TO92 case? Your arguments will carry more weight then.

 

[btcg]

What makes you think that **broken link removed** is a Japanese company? Japanese transistors usually start with 2SA, 2SB, 2SC, 2SD, etc.

Real quick here, since my wife is calling me to come upstairs: Experience

For reference: all 2sa's & 2sb's are PNP

All 2sc & 2sd's are NPN

But National Semiconductor also was responsible for the 1n (diode) and 2n(transistor) line. Look it up.

Why don't YOU post a datasheet showing the 2N1103 in a TO92 case? Your arguments will carry more weight then.

Excuse me, who is questioning me? Isn't it you?

Post the correct datasheet(and ALL of them)

Dollars to doughnuts, the Japs produced an 2n1103 in a To-92, at some point.

 

[kchriste]

For reference: all 2sa's & 2sb's are PNP
All 2sc & 2sd'd are NPN

I know this.

But National Semiconductor also was responsible for the 1n (diode) and 2n(transistor) line. Look it up.

What do you mean by also? Are you claiming that National Semiconductor produced the 2S series?

Excuse me, who is questioning me? Isn't it you?
Post the correct datasheet(and ALL of them)
Dollars to doughnuts, the Japs produced an 2n1103 in a To-92

I have nothing to prove. You do.

 

[btcg]

I have nothing to prove. You do.



Wrong again!

You question, you prove.

You can't!

 

[kchriste]

Never mind. I have better things to do with my time.

 

[mneary]

NOW: I think mcneary was right, but inaccurate.

Yes, I made some transcription errors from the initial post to my first response, which scrambled my logical process. I regret those errors which prolonged this discussion.

 

[HarveyH42]

All Electronics is a surplus store, one of my favorites as well. You really can't be this picky about the parts they offer. I've never had an issue with them. The stuff is cheap and surplus for a reason. If it says 'House Marked', then the numbers don't mean a whole lot, unless you know for whom. AE goes by what they are told when they buy, and what they find when they test and research. Occasionally some real gem deals slip through. Usually when they have a bunch of new stuff, in small quantities.

Transistor equivalents and substitutions: The part only has to function as the original, doesn't have to be even close to specs, or cost. Usually, they point to a higher priced, more than you need type...

Anyway, All Electronics has always given what info they have on the parts, never felt deceived. It's surplus, they can be wrong sometimes. If you absolutely have to have a specific part, you need to go to Mouser or Digikey, the manufacturer. There is always some risk in surplus.

 

[btcg]

Quick update:

I just spoke to a Ms. Jackson at All Electronic's central call center, and she acknowledged that I was sent the wrong transistors, and would be willing to exchange them for the correct ones. I told her I'd be willing to keep them, providing that she could verify the technical details of the device. She could not, but gave me the name & number of some who could: Eddie (818-997-1806) at All Electronics in Van Nuys, California.


I called Eddie, and he pulled the transistor in question (the supposed "house marked" MPSA06-HM). After he looked at it, he agreed with me: it is NOT a house marked transistor. Eddie said he was going to pass this along, and they would be updating the website to reflect the correct information: it's a 2n1103

Sorry, but I don't time to argue semantics offered by others.


I have now placed 5 different orders with AE over nearly 15 years, and EVERY one of the 5 orders contained at least 1 fill mistake made by the handlers.

My original premise is correct:

Check the items you order carefully!