12DC Sockets

[cowboybob]

Where do you get those way cool pointers??

And I just noticed, why is the power supply (what was a battery) now an AC Voltage Generator (VG1)?

No wonder you're getting a very nice AC signal out of the circuit. That's what you're feeding in...

 

[Muttley600]

The cool way pointers are in windows 7 too you will be glad to know, save the screen snip into 'my pictures' library, then go into that & right click on mouse - go to - edit
This will bring up the picture prog in 7, at the top you will see shapes, click on them then go to picture, make them as large/small as you want by holding your left mouse button down, then you have colours, use: infill slide - solid colour, there you have cool way pointers
I'm relieved to be able to help you

Honest, I didn't know the vg was a AC gen, but I couldn't get the sillyscope to pick battery up.....
So I clicked DC in sillyscope, then properties on sim & adjusted to our requiements, hence leaving phase on '0' because I thought that must have been if you were doing something with AC, good guess hey......lol

Just thought, I didn't fit a reg/rec Inbetween if it is acting as AC.eek!
But it still gives us the right voltage readings?

Edit: cool, no one noticed I had to have ten goes at recorder in MUTT01.....must have got away with that then
Thought I'd give pics a cool name.lol

 

[cowboybob]

But it still gives us the right voltage readings?

Here's another little tidbit to complicate your life: you can have an AC signal that is riding on a DC bias. As a result you can, by using the DC and AC functions on the multimeter, read not only the AC voltage, but a DC voltage as well. And it has a very interesting effect of the scope display of the AC signal.

Pretty cool, huh!

Effectively you've raised what used to be zero volts (Ground) by the value of the DC bias.

I'll send another schematic like today's but with the DC bias added.

Just couldn't let you rest, ya know??

Don't worry about it tonight.

(Like don't think about an elephant. And now what are you thinking about??)

Oh. And thanks for the pointer info. Found out I have the "snip" thingy on Vista. Didn't know that. You are a bundle of good info.

 

[Muttley600]

Will come back to that in morning before you get up
Night both

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

My head is currently spinning.
Who has been taking the notes.
Management just called a meeting.
Where are we?

 

[Muttley600]

My head is currently spinning.
Who has been taking the notes.
Management just called a meeting.
Where are we?

Fear not my friend, I am taking lots of notes **broken link removed** I'm itching to get on with the project in hand but cannot do that if I'm not understanding why I can't do things.
Examples: you asked for wave off mini pcb, it seems I need that off sim as it is (with batt)
You said it converted DC-AC-DC, how can I learn which bits are AC & which are DC? then that would affect which part of sillyscope setting we are choosing

I haven't understood these bits yet, so while we are both biting at the bit to get cracking, I dont feel like I will achieve anything if I dont understand it, so plan is to cover basic AC theory alongside sorting this pcb sim before jumping in on project & trying to learn about components & values as we go, basically breaking it down into managable chunks so I'm not overwhemled

You have a big part to play in this as you seem to have the knowledge I seek, all I need is for you & CBB to help me with basic understanding before we go leaping in

So first question is can a sillyscope read a battery, it is not in the drop down menu, options are chn 1 or 2, so I'm presuming this schematic is running dual lines,
can you help me understand what this means, why do I have chn 1 on sillyscope as well as VF1

Hope you'll understand I have an incurable itch that won't go away until I can reason why things do what they do & why **broken link removed**

Would you be willing to download same prog so you can work with us on it, as I'm sure you would be able to see & explain what is going on
what were you on about changing the one diode because of studs or something, for what?
what was that about changing probes around?

You know you want to tell me **broken link removed**

ooops, sorry, morning both, when you get up

 

[cowboybob]

I'M UP.

Sort of...

Be rigth back with answers and the AC - DC scope example.

OK. Here it is. It is the starting point. The circuit was modified for the demo.

OOPSY. Getting a fatal error trying to edit post. Will try a new post.

 

[Muttley600]

View attachment 61088

If you construct this circuit exactly as it appears, and set the instruments as they are displayed, you should get the exact same results.

CBB

Im so good, lalalala **broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

Heres photos of gadgets before I forget again

Camera:

**broken link removed**

Held in place by block to hold it tight in bag, works a treat

**broken link removed**

Dora the explorer is held in this:

**broken link removed**

Like this:

**broken link removed**

 

[cowboybob]

Very, VERY good!! A++

Now play with VG1 values and signal types (sawtooth, square , 105 Hz, etc).

And Neat stuff.

So first question is can a sillyscope read a battery

Yes. Check your "Coupling" options. "DC" will show a trace elevated {+ DC) above (or below, - DC) the Gnd symbol on roght side of scope face.

Don't miss my post before your most recent. It has AC - DC scope example.

I'll be off-line for a few hours.

 

[Muttley600]

Be rigth back with answers and the AC - DC scope example.

OK. Here it is. It is the starting point. The circuit was modified for the demo

I'm on it now, you do realise this will create even more questions **broken link removed**

So this is going to teach me how to understand AC right, ok I'll play with other one before getting onto this one.

Need to go into work soon as I was late yersterday so I'll have a play tonight **broken link removed**

 

[Muttley600]

Nearly done for the day, just a couple of letters to post
What was you using for input then?
Looking forward to getting back on it

 

[cowboybob]

Yeah for you!

What was you using for input then?

Huh?

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

Ya know, we forgot to really show Graham how to use a scope:

Here is just one tutorial: **broken link removed**

I'm going to quickly mention a few things as it relates to most scopes and the sillyscope.

First there is the coupling control (AC, GND, DC). In AC it responds to only the AC portion of the signal. In GND, it forces the input, not the probes to be at ground and DC allows it to measure the AC+DC portion of the input.
AC+DC is varying + constant

We usually start the power up process at the GND position.

The next section is TRIGGERING
Auto Trigger - You'll get a trace, but it may not be stable. An important part of auto-trigger is that if there is no signal, you get a trigger pulse anyway so it can trigger on ground.

Then there is the SLOPE of the signal; Icons represent rising and falling
And we have a Trigger LEVEL and Trigger PHASE control

Scopes could have a delay line in there, such that the signal your triggering on is visible.

Then there is a TRIGGER Source control
Usually there is an EXTernal trigger input
Trigger on A and Trigger on B for 2 channels
TV-H - the old TV horizontal sweep rate
TV- V the old TV vertical rate
Line - the power line frequency

There could be a Trigger mode control (depreciated here)
Alternate
Chopped

Then you have the infamous Time BASE control
This is time for the x-axis and it probably has the x-y mode select as well.

Then there is the V/div control
Generally the is the voltage per major division
There will also be an UNCAL indicator and a way to make the V/Div variable

You'll find a sort of display control:
A
B
A-B (useful for measuring differential signals)

In older scopes you'll find intensity, focus, on/off, beam finder

That all said, you generally turn on the power, set gnd, set auto trigger and pick a moderate sweep rate ms/div.

You use the Beam finder and adjust the Horiz and Vertical position controls. Set the intensity and the focus.

The inputs of a scope need some discussion. There are 50 ohm inputs (transmission line) and usually 1 Megohm shunted by about 22 pf. The sillyscope probably has infinate resistance. Probes come in x1, div/10, div/100, div/500.

Oscilloscope probes are purchased for the Bandwidth of the scope, at least equal to the f of interest or the BW of the scope. Scopes have a calibrate test point usually that outputs a fast rise time square wave. Just like resistors divide, capacitors can divide. There is capacitance in the cables that have to be "compensated" so that a square wave displays as a square wave. So there is a little capacitor trimmer at the connector end that allows just that. It is useless in the x1 mode. One probe I have is switchable with GND, x1 and x10. When you select gnd and x1 the cap hole is covered.

The sillyscope is also a storage scope so there are a few controls for that.

There is a dual time base, delayed sweep scope available as well which is beyond the scope of what I wanted to talk about. There are newer technologies of DSO (Digital Storage Oscilloscope) and MSO (Mixed signal Oscilloscope) as well. The MSO incorporates a logic analyzer.

The oscilloscope was a way of observing repeating (periodic) signals. With complex mixed signal triggering modes and storage it can be a way of capturing a single event.

 

[cowboybob]

Hey KISS!

I had (until about 8 months ago) a Tektronix 922a. Not a super scope (only good to 15MHz) but a sweet scope for all of it. Then the High voltage went cause the flyback went (which I wasn't even sure was the problem) and was $80 to replace and so on.

So, ended up getting a hand held DSO (DSO201) for about $89.

I could not believe the info I can get out of this little thing. Could not believe it.

Did I say I could not believe it?

The broken 922 went directly to Good Will and I ain't looked back.

Did I say I couldn't believe it?

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

That looks pretty cool.

I had an old Dumont scope and a couple of alien recurring swwep scopes that were useless. I then purchased a Military Transistor/tube heavy hybrid all gone. I then got a 3 trace 100 mHz Kikisui, I think a COS6100.
I have two tek battery operated portable scopes with a 500 kHz bandwith that need work. Received in that condition.

I just started researching another possibility, a version of this thing: https://www.bitscope.com/ I don't know yet.

I also want a decent LCR meter. The handheld latest from HP are promising. I had access to an extremely sophisticated HP/Agilent LCR meter at one time.

 

[cowboybob]

Did I say I couldn't believe it?

I can't believe it. You know the waterfall sonar displays? The device on the link above looks like an organized waterfall display.

Probably not unlike yourself, at one time I worked with absolute state-of-the-art gear.

It has become somewhat more sophisticated, ya think? Although, at some point, they're going to have to change the paradigm or no one will be able to digest the data presented.

Oh for the days of a lodestone, a float and a bowl of water...

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

As I said, I'm collecting a few instruments. A 20 Mhz arb function generator, although accessing the arb will be tough (IEEE-488). I have a TRMS meter that will go to 20 Mhz. An AF/FM MPX generator (some goofy interface). These haven't been unpacked yet.

I have a few misc handheld DVM's, one with capacitance. I have a CHEAP cap meter. I have an old keithly 160 B which has a feedback ammeter in it. Another non-autoranging DVM. Then I have a 2 other IEEE-488 DMM's and one system DMM. The system DMM probably needs a NVRAM and calibration.

I have an all type wide range TC thermocouple meter. It just needs a fuse. An IR thermometer with a K type input as well. I have a silicon probe thermometer. I just have to replace the sensor (which I have) and recalibrate.

Then I have a Keithley Freq counter/timer good to 120 Mhz. An option would have extended it to 1.2 Ghz. It has button issues. I'm trying to rectify that as we speak. Should have parts this week. I have a few tube testers and a commercial car battery tester/charger. I just picked up a TV signal level meter. I also have a precision voltage source, but the IEE-488 option has an issue. It won't stay powered up if connected. That instrument was a steal.

Then a few power supplies. Highest power is 0-32 V, 10 A.

The wants are the MSO scope. A SMU (Source Measure Unit) which is an electrometer type instrument and probably a PC based audio instrument which probably requires a USB DAC and a USB isolator.

 

[KeepItSimpleStupid]

The Garmin, you can power through the USB connector, but it doesn't act the same as thru 12 V power. There are two cords. One with the traffic stuff and one without. You can always canibalize a cord and put on of the other ends that I reccomended. in fact, you should try to pick up a socket (the one with the lock) and a plug. The socket would have the waterproof cap. My list of devices might include:
1. Vid camera
2. GPS - with/without traffic; th former is tough to deal with.
3. Cell phone - lots of charging issues depending on model. The only constant is change here.
4. Helmet headphone/mic system (Wireless/Wired?)
5. Short range communication receiver/transmitter
6. Audio/Radio

These are things that come to mind to me.

 

[Muttley600]

What was you using for input then?

Huh?

I know now, it is chn1 **broken link removed**

Ya know, we forgot to really show Graham how to use a scope:

It was also nice to know that I picked up quite a bit, but It's suprising how the odd little bit of info makes all the difference as above

Here is just one tutorial: **broken link removed**

Wow, that was some read, came home from work, read that, had tea & promtly fell asleep for an hour, brain overload but worth every second

I'm going to quickly mention a few things as it relates to most scopes and the sillyscope.

First there is the coupling control (AC, GND, DC). In AC it responds to only the AC portion of the signal. In GND, it forces the input, not the probes to be at ground and DC allows it to measure the AC+DC portion of the input.
AC+DC is varying + constant

erm ok, I'm not understanding that bit, what is the difference between input & probes
My understanding of input is a function generator/chn 1 or chn2 or pin/meter etc but then........oh I get it, see, sometimes it is better to talk it through with friends
Think the DC setting needs more explaining **broken link removed**

Then there is a TRIGGER Source control
Usually there is an EXTernal trigger input
Trigger on A and Trigger on B for 2 channels
TV-H - the old TV horizontal sweep rate
TV- V the old TV vertical rate
Line - the power line frequency

You'll find a sort of display control:
A
B
A-B (useful for measuring differential signals)

Is that the A/B on bottom left of MUTT05, so maybe chn1 isnt for the battery afterall, these are the two lines here right **broken link removed**

**broken link removed**

after looking again, I'm getting confused over A & B, because this A & B worked & there was no chn1 or 2 as input trigger, so are these for probes & chn1 or 2 input trigger is battery like I first thought......needs more discussion

The inputs of a scope need some discussion. There are 50 ohm inputs (transmission line) and usually 1 Megohm shunted by about 22 pf.

These are for real sillyscope probes but I take it do not apply to TI prog

Scopes have a calibrate test point usually that outputs a fast rise time square wave. Just like resistors divide, capacitors can divide. There is capacitance in the cables that have to be "compensated" so that a square wave displays as a square wave.

Well, that was the only thing I was left wondering what they are all about really, different waves actually got covered but not actually why there are different waves in the first place, covered complex waves, thats cool, that is simply seperating phases if I understood correctly, but why all the different named waves, why would you change them **broken link removed** feel at a total loss on this one

Thanks for not legging it KISS & thanks for the information on scopes **broken link removed** but I hope you dont get bored of giving me info for it to raise more questions **broken link removed**

 

[cowboybob]

KISS,

That's a nice range of gear. Haven't seen the name Keithley in a while.

My test equipment is pretty basic. And aged. My sig gen is an old tube type HeathKit (IG-42). Have to constantly tweak it while monitoring the freq with a RadioShack hand held Freq meter (good to a gig, surprisingly enough). A slew of RadioShack DVMs (some working, some not). A BK Precision (1610) DC power supply. It's been a very reliable box. And my fav, a Simpson 260, liberated from the USN when I was discharged in '74. You know about the scope(s).

A bunch of ham equipment, notably: Heath DX-60A, Heath SB-102, a Hallicrafters S-118 recvr, Heath tube type VFO, bunch of tuners. Some QRP rigs. Lots of RG8. A box of (43, to be exact) MINT, in the original boxes and un-opened, matched RCA 6146As. Don't ask why... My wife goes on about EBay at least once a month.

Various home brew stuff.

And TONS of piece's parts

I'm an older, retired Tech who likes to play as I did as a kid.

I guess my most recent excitement (last June - July) was to restore, to factory specs, inside and out, a basket case Seeburg, 1946 Symphanola juke box (google Seeburg "trashcan"). Put 350+ hours into it (got paid for it!!) and it is sweet. Currently doing duty on Bowen's island in a Restaurant/Bar of the same name. Works like a champ.
Sampling of the records onboard: "In the mood, Boogie Woogie Bugle Boy, Take the A Train, Rock around the Clock, Beat me Daddy, Eight to the Bar", etc. (period tunes) record choices (20 in all). Only mod was to change the per record play to 25c (from 5c per play). I'll tell ya, back then the machines were designed to be repaired. Everything. Even the magnetic coils could be removed and rewound, if necessary, and if few cases I had to do that. I got pics, if your interested.

CBB