DIY Toner Transfer Paper (cheap and easy)) - Page 15 - Electronic Circuits Projects Diagrams Free

kchriste · 8th August 2009, 08:01 PM

That makes sense when you think about it. While the iron produces heat, the paper between it and the PCB adds thermal resistance limiting the heat transfer. Then you have the thermal resistance of the "heatsink" (backing paper, counter top etc.) drawing heat away from the PCB and the toner. The balance between these 4 variables (Iron temp, source resistance, sink resistance, and ambient temp) will determine the actual PCB temperature rise.

Rolf · 8th August 2009, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyLude

To add to the confusion. I crank my iron to the max when using the photo paper, but apparently this is too hot for Pulsar paper and gives me squished lines. I don't know the specific iron temp and I have not tried the Pulsar paper again using lower temps, yet.

So, the useful temperature may not only be based on the toner you are using, but the 'paper' you are using as well.

Strange; during my experiments with DIY toner transfer paper I did not notice any of that. I used the same temperature for everything. But I guss there are exceptions to everything.
My transfer to Kodak photo paper that I used was almost impossible to remove unless you boiled it in water.

Rolf · 8th August 2009, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3v0

Looks like there is more then plenty of BS here too.

Quite a bit of negativity given that you did not bother to scan the rest of the page. Snap to judgment comes to mind.

In the real world it does not much matter if what one writes is true or not. If enough people spread enough bull others will take it as fact.

3v0

Temper.... temper, I just stated my honest opinion and you in turn write what sure looks like a personal attack.

3v0 · 8th August 2009, 09:10 PM

If you guys bother to read the bullshit on franks site you would understand what is going on here.

There is a golden temperature at which the toner gets sticky but will not squish/flow. If you get your iron set to that temperature you can iron all day and press as hard as you can manage and you will not ruin the transfer.

This should hold for all transfers where the toner does not soak into the paper fiber. This should include the glue based DIY stuff.

You should be thanking frank for this information instead of beating him up.

How do you think I should respond to this. He is a friend.

EDIT: Frank started out as a vendor. Just a guy I purchased paper from. But after several phone calls my attitude changed. This guy knows his stuff and is willing to share. You would not be making you knock off if he had not come up with his paper first. Still he is willing to share what he knows. Yet you do your best to drive him away from this forum.

3v0

HarveyH42 · 9th August 2009, 03:05 AM

I'd guess that PCB fabrication is the 'thrill' of the hobby for a few, mine comes from the design and build, and ultimately applying power, and seeing the expected results. Occasionally, the unexpected smoke, sparks, and flames are pretty cool too. Etching and drilling a PCB is probably the least favorite part of the process, and usually the most time consuming. Sending off for boards is costly and time consuming, not real practical for hobby work. I use the Pulsar paper and a laminator, and it reduces a lot of the hassles, at a reasonable price.

Frank has a good product, and he spent a lot of time figuring out how to get results. I'm sure there were quite a few failures, before he got his paper where it is today. You should be glad he is willing to share his experience, to help you with your homebrew alternative to his commercial product. He's still going to get some business out of this, he has other related products, and there will still be people like me who don't care to draw out the PCB process anymore than I have to, even if it can be done for free. It still has a time price, and a little added complexity.
Most people just starting out, don't want to spend a lot of money at first, then they are willing to spend a little more to make it quicker and easier. I think that is why Frank is more than willing to help everyone make successful boards, regardless of the paper. He will still draw some new business out of this, even if you can make magazine paper work exactly the same or better than his paper.

DirtyLude · 9th August 2009, 03:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kchriste

That makes sense when you think about it. While the iron produces heat, the paper between it and the PCB adds thermal resistance limiting the heat transfer. Then you have the thermal resistance of the "heatsink" (backing paper, counter top etc.) drawing heat away from the PCB and the toner. The balance between these 4 variables (Iron temp, source resistance, sink resistance, and ambient temp) will determine the actual PCB temperature rise.

Definitely there is the case of thermal resistance. Purely subjectively the paper looks very similar in thickness and weight.

Possibly the same characteristics that makes the photo paper stick to the PCB holds everything together rather than letting the toner squish.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3v0

EDIT: Frank started out as a vendor. Just a guy I purchased paper from. But after several phone calls my attitude changed. This guy knows his stuff and is willing to share. You would not be making you knock off if he had not come up with his paper first. Still he is willing to share what he knows. Yet you do your best to drive him away from this forum.

3v0

Generally you're pretty good being level headed, but step back and take a breath. Rolf does not represent this forum as a whole and seriously he makes these claims about everything. He told me we were keeping types of photo paper a 'secret'.

3v0 · 9th August 2009, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DirtyLude

Generally you're pretty good being level headed, but step back and take a breath. Rolf does not represent this forum as a whole and seriously he makes these claims about everything. He told me we were keeping types of photo paper a 'secret'.

Perhaps I am a bit oversensitive about this. But people often do not know the source validity of even the context much of the time.

I used to call it net think. Truth does not matter much, if people see it they repeat it.

3v0

Rolf · 9th August 2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3v0

Perhaps I am a bit oversensitive about this. But people often do not know the source validity of even the context much of the time.

I used to call it net think. Truth does not matter much, if people see it they repeat it.

3v0

Maybe you will understand this:
Don Lancaster wrote in his magazine "Nuts & Volts Magazine" August 1994, and I quote:

"Frank Miller of DynaArt Designs has
elected to go the water soluble route,
similar to ordinary decals. His film
has a coat of a high temperature but
water soluble glue.
You can fake his material by using
premium art store white glue applied
with a windshield wiper blade. But it
is far faster and simpler to use the
genuine article.
As before, the film gets sent
through a suitable laser printer and
the reverse reading toner image is put
down. Also as before, temperature
and pressure is used to bond the toner
to a properly cleaned pc board.
Instead of peeling the backing away
and getting a differential transfer, you
instead soak the board in water. This
releases the glue coating. The backing
sheet floats on away. Eliminating one
source of differential transfers."
(My note: We now know that most white glues don't work)
I did not know most of this when I started this thread. So there we have it, Pulsar's "secret" was compromised a long time ago.

PS. I resent the caractor accenation used by some here, namely using one word quotes out of contexts.
It is really sad when one can't post the the highlights of ones experiments and observations without being the target of malicious accusations.

3v0 · 9th August 2009, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolf

I did not know most of this when I started this thread. So there we have it, Pulsar's "secret" was compromised a long time ago.

Was there ever a secret ? As long as I have been aware of franks paper he has been telling people that it is coated with water soluble starch.

It is not my intent to give you or anyone crap about making the DIY glue paper and I think it is a great idea and effort. It allows people who can not get the pulsar paper to make their own.

If you feel that I attacked you personal I am sorry. My problem was with the non accurate and somewhat ugly statements you made.

I would like to see Frank spend more time here. The sort of statements you made regrading his products will work against that.

3v0

be80be · 9th August 2009, 04:49 PM

Roft It's all a cover up you would think with

Quote:

Threads: 52,345, Posts: 464,358, Members: 109,391

any thing could be uncovered. Out of 109,391 smart people I bet you could get what you need to no about any thing. And when that happens some one going to get Mad

And one more thing this is not a paper like the Knoxville News Sentinel

It's form Forms have buddy's talk about a buddy's make a buddy mad.

This thread should be only about DIY Toner Transfer Paper (cheap and easy))
And all will be happy
I don't see any thing in the title about Pulsar paper.? I think is said
Cheap easy DIY Toner Transfer Paper.

tariq7868 · 9th August 2009, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by be80be

Roft It's all a cover up you would think with any thing could be uncovered. Out of 109,391 smart people I bet you could get what you need to no about any thing. And when that happens some one going to get Mad

And one more thing this is not a paper like the Knoxville News Sentinel

It's form Forms have buddy's talk about a buddy's make a buddy mad.

This thread should be only about DIY Toner Transfer Paper (cheap and easy))
And all will be happy
I don't see any thing in the title about Pulsar paper.? I think is said
Cheap easy DIY Toner Transfer Paper.

i am with 'be80be' ...

anyway.. i am also going try white (artwork) Glue trick..

Rolf · 9th August 2009, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3v0

Was there ever a secret ? As long as I have been aware of franks paper he has been telling people that it is coated with water soluble starch.

It is not my intent to give you or anyone crap about making the DIY glue paper and I think it is a great idea and effort. It allows people who can not get the pulsar paper to make their own.

If you feel that I attacked you personal I am sorry. My problem was with the non accurate and somewhat ugly statements you made.

I would like to see Frank spend more time here. The sort of statements you made regrading his products will work against that.

3v0

I see your point and I too am sorry that I got you upset about your friend.
I will in the future try to temper my remarks; can we bury the hatchet?

3v0 · 9th August 2009, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rolf

I see your point and I too am sorry that I got you upset about your friend.
I will in the future try to temper my remarks; can we bury the hatchet?

Yes and thanks.

3v0

Rolf · 9th August 2009, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tariq7868

i am with 'be80be' ...

anyway.. i am also going try white (artwork) Glue trick..

I see where there have been success using automobile wind shield wipers to spread it evenly on the magazine paper. I wish I could visualize a holder that would make them rigid enough.
Let us know how it works out.

Rolf · 9th August 2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by be80be

Roft It's all a cover up you would think with any thing could be uncovered. Out of 109,391 smart people I bet you could get what you need to no about any thing. And when that happens some one going to get Mad

And one more thing this is not a paper like the Knoxville News Sentinel

It's form Forms have buddy's talk about a buddy's make a buddy mad.

This thread should be only about DIY Toner Transfer Paper (cheap and easy))
And all will be happy
I don't see any thing in the title about Pulsar paper.? I think is said
Cheap easy DIY Toner Transfer Paper.

Well, maybe it will strengthen up and fly right!

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8th August 2009, 08:01 PM	#211
kchriste	That makes sense when you think about it. While the iron produces heat, the paper between it and the PCB adds thermal resistance limiting the heat transfer. Then you have the thermal resistance of the "heatsink" (backing paper, counter top etc.) drawing heat away from the PCB and the toner. The balance between these 4 variables (Iron temp, source resistance, sink resistance, and ambient temp) will determine the actual PCB temperature rise. __________________ Inside every little problem, is a big problem trying to get out. Last edited by kchriste; 8th August 2009 at 08:03 PM.

8th August 2009, 09:10 PM	#214
3v0	If you guys bother to read the bullshit on franks site you would understand what is going on here. There is a golden temperature at which the toner gets sticky but will not squish/flow. If you get your iron set to that temperature you can iron all day and press as hard as you can manage and you will not ruin the transfer. This should hold for all transfers where the toner does not soak into the paper fiber. This should include the glue based DIY stuff. You should be thanking frank for this information instead of beating him up. How do you think I should respond to this. He is a friend. EDIT: Frank started out as a vendor. Just a guy I purchased paper from. But after several phone calls my attitude changed. This guy knows his stuff and is willing to share. You would not be making you knock off if he had not come up with his paper first. Still he is willing to share what he knows. Yet you do your best to drive him away from this forum. 3v0 __________________ Please post questions to the forums. PM's are for personal communication. BCHS/3v0's Tutorials Junebug USB PIC programmer kit., USB Bit Whacker, The 15 Minute Printed Circuit Board! (+drill time) Last edited by 3v0; 8th August 2009 at 09:27 PM.

9th August 2009, 03:05 AM	#215
HarveyH42	I'd guess that PCB fabrication is the 'thrill' of the hobby for a few, mine comes from the design and build, and ultimately applying power, and seeing the expected results. Occasionally, the unexpected smoke, sparks, and flames are pretty cool too. Etching and drilling a PCB is probably the least favorite part of the process, and usually the most time consuming. Sending off for boards is costly and time consuming, not real practical for hobby work. I use the Pulsar paper and a laminator, and it reduces a lot of the hassles, at a reasonable price. Frank has a good product, and he spent a lot of time figuring out how to get results. I'm sure there were quite a few failures, before he got his paper where it is today. You should be glad he is willing to share his experience, to help you with your homebrew alternative to his commercial product. He's still going to get some business out of this, he has other related products, and there will still be people like me who don't care to draw out the PCB process anymore than I have to, even if it can be done for free. It still has a time price, and a little added complexity. Most people just starting out, don't want to spend a lot of money at first, then they are willing to spend a little more to make it quicker and easier. I think that is why Frank is more than willing to help everyone make successful boards, regardless of the paper. He will still draw some new business out of this, even if you can make magazine paper work exactly the same or better than his paper.