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Old 8th April 2008, 09:37 AM   (permalink)
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Originally Posted by whiz115
if you tell me that capacitance goes always down while the caps are aging or get misused, then i think i'll forget about ESR meter, because i'm not interested for anything else other than testing if an on circuit capacitor is fine.
Capacitance doesn't always go down when it fails, that's the whole point - you also can't usually measure capacitance in-circuit, where as you can ESR.

Having said that, my new meter does both (or at least trys to), but while it always reads ESR in-circuit, sometimes it just displays the capacitance as 'in circuit' rather than a value.
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Old 8th April 2008, 10:27 AM   (permalink)
HS3
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Originally Posted by whiz115
HS3 from what i understand nigel speaks about diagnosis of a faulty cap.
From what I understand each one of us is talking about something different. The OP asked about capacitor characteristics in general, no specifically about trying to diagnose possible faulty caps in-circuit.

It seems some are trying to argue against a straw man here because at the beginning of the thread I said
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Originally Posted by moi
I have built myself a very simple ESR meter which is good enough for everyday testing in that it gives you a rough idea. When repairing power supplies (the electrolytics tend to go like crazy) I can run a quick check with the capacitors in-circuit and this is a great first test.
Let us stop moving the goal posts around because we're all saying essentially the same thing.
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Old 8th April 2008, 10:47 AM   (permalink)
HS3
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Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin
Capacitance doesn't always go down when it fails, that's the whole point
I would qualify that by saying that a very common way, the most common way, for caps to fail is because due to heat or too much ripple current or cheap cap or whatever the ESR goes up a bit, which causes the cap to heat up more which in turn causes electrolite evaporation which causes higher ESR and the cap enters a spiral of growing ESR and growing temperature which ultimately leads to its destruction. It would be rare that you catch a capacitor in the middle of this process. By the time you get the electronic circuit the cap has usually failed catastrophically or has not started the degradation process. Once I get a power supply with a bad cap I look at the rest and if they are of the same cheap brand I replace them all even if they test good. There is no point in saving a few pennies only to have another cap fail later on.
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Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin
- you also can't usually measure capacitance in-circuit, where as you can ESR.
Yes that is the main advantage of testing ESR: that it can be done in-circuit. Unsoldering components is a PITA.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin
Having said that, my new meter does both (or at least trys to), but while it always reads ESR in-circuit, sometimes it just displays the capacitance as 'in circuit' rather than a value.
"Always" leaves no alternative possibility. I would say "Almost always" because I think that any ESR meter would have a problem measuring ESR of a capacitor which has a very low resistor in parallel. This is, admitedly, a very rare situation in real circuits but it does happen.

So, yes, we agree, the *first* test I do on any faulty SMPS is test all caps with the ESR meter and most of the time it detects bad caps . Maybe replacing the caps is all it takes but very often the failure of the caps has lead to the destruction of the switching elements and other disasters.
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