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neon · 29th December 2007, 06:41 PM

An education is a must to live nowdays. Bt education with a degree and diplomas means nothing unless the individual learned what he was supposed to learn. I have met many educated idiots with degrees and diplomas. reminds me of profesional students.Then again I have met people with not much formal education that knew more about things then the educated lot.

crusty · 29th December 2007, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioguru

An education teaches you how to learn. It expands your mind. It makes you smarter.
Some educated people use the specialty that they studied, others don't. The ones who don't use the specialty that they studied, learn the new profession quickly because they learned how to learn.

An uneducated labourer can hardly talk. Just swearing all the time. Doesn't know about local or world events. No common sense. Stupid.

What is the trait called plumping??? Hee, hee. Over-eating?

i'm bound to miss a freakin letter after workin a damn 15 hour shift, thanks!

crusty · 29th December 2007, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torben

Well, one thing you might learn in a university is effective communication. Like spelling, grammar, punctuation, etc. Y'know, so people don't have to guess at what you might have meant.

Also, while I do believe that it's important not to confuse scholarship with education (what is an intellectual? It's someone who has been educated beyond their intelligence) it's also important to remember that the main point of school is not passing exams. Unless, of course, you're just there for the paper you get at the end. The important thing is that you have access to people and resources you would not have access to outside of that environment. You can avail yourself of that opportunity and learn lots and pass the test, or turn up your nose at it and still pass the test, but I know who I'd trust to know their stuff after the fact.

It is absolutely possible to have a fulfilling and productive life without a degree or formal education, and in many fields self-teaching is a valid way to learn. For instance, sound engineering schools are largely a scam; you cannnot learn to have good ears, and anybody can show you what knob on the board does what. But I am NOT letting some self-taught quack operate on MY knee or my son's messed-up kidney.

All that said, I was hired out of university in the mid-90's (computer science) and have worked in the field ever since, I have quite a few software and technical writing contributions out there on the net and one published book to my name, and I could probably challenge for my degree and in fact could probably teach some courses at a university level.

I know people with degrees from good schools which aren't worth the paper they're written on. I know people with degrees who are absolutely brilliant in their fields and who rightfully earned those degrees. I also know many highly articulate, interesting tradespeople with no interest whatsoever in getting a degree, and more than a few complete boobs who would be complete boobs no matter what papers they had.

It is all down to the individual in question. Broad strokes can always be painted, but they will also miss the mark for a large percentage of the people being so painted.

Torben

Don't know if you knew, but doctors still screw up. Haven't you heard of those numerous wrong operations done on people, and surgeons sewing up their gloves, tools, or rags inside someone? Hell sometimes getting operated on puts you in worse condition than you already were.

Brian Hoskins · 29th December 2007, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioguru

A neighbour's boy was 14 and was ready to drop out of school because he didn't understand math. His mother asked if I could help.
I tutored him and now he is in university and is doing well (drinking well?).

Next time I hear of someone struggling with Math, I'll be sure to suggest they seek the advice of a Canadian Duck.

Brian

audioguru · 30th December 2007, 12:11 AM

I am finished with math. Next tutoring I do will be philosophy or philanthropy.

Torben · 30th December 2007, 02:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeBop

Torben, given where you live, I don't understand how you can say this. It seems to me that in this country you almost need a diploma, even to wash dishes.

I can see that for many jobs, but some counterpoints:

My best friend has 1 year of community college. He also owns and operates a successful and popular (as in, having very loyal employees) forestry contracting company in northern B.C. which is now in its seventh year. He is also now half owner of Vancouver's second-favourite (according to the Georgia Straight) indie record store. His brother has AFAIK no post-secondary, and now runs a 5-processor operation full time (each processor is worth around a third of a million) and makes money at it--which he plows straight into savings and investments. (For those who don't know forestry, in this context a "processor" is a great big honkin' machine which turns trees into logs.)

Another fellow I know swore to his father that he'd be a millionaire by 30. No post-secondary education; he just learned to build houses. He kept his promise.

Part of the problem is thinking that you need someone to give you a job. If you have the drive, you can make your own. Doesn't work for everybody, of course.

I have any number of friends who do OK in the service industry with little or no post-secondary education. Granted, they're often using it to pay for university, and after a few years of it most folks seem to want to slit their wrists.

With the current amount of development in the lower mainland and south island, if you can swing a hammer or carry rebar, you can get a job. Not a career, probably, but you can put food on the table and bulk up a resume.

Quote:

It also seems that no one will believe you could ever learn anything on your own, no matter how well educated you are, (unless of course that education is in a technological field.) Even then, I doubt there are many people in this country who use even ten percent of what they learned.

I totally agree with you on the value of some degrees. I have seen people who have not just received a Master's degree, without even having a good grip on the fundamentals, but also have been promoted to a teaching position because they are friendly and flattering to the person doing the hiring.

On the other hand, like yourself, I know people who don't have a degree, and show more intelligence than some of the 'educated' people I have met.

I agree with all of that.

Torben

[Edit: Poor Georgia. I spelt it 'George' originally.]

**3v0** · 30th December 2007, 03:13 AM

In general.

If you are any good at what you do, degree or no, most of what you know is self taught.

Some people go to school and only learn what they need to take the tests. OK for getting a grade but not too useful when it comes to the real world.

This speaks to the difficulty of creating a good test and grading in general.

Getting good grades is a skill that is not tightly linked to learning or understanding the subject. If you can get far enough inside a profs head you know what his test will contain.

An education is like most everything else. It is only worth what you put into it. Tempered by your understanding of the process.

Torben · 30th December 2007, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crusty

Don't know if you knew, but doctors still screw up. Haven't you heard of those numerous wrong operations done on people, and surgeons sewing up their gloves, tools, or rags inside someone? Hell sometimes getting operated on puts you in worse condition than you already were.

Of course they screw up; they're human. And many are overworked, and some aren't as good as their papers would have you believe. But that in no way implies that Joe Sixpack who thinks he knows something about surgery from watching the Open Learning channel and House is going to screw up less. I *still* know which one I'd want taking the risk.

Torben

Torben · 30th December 2007, 03:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3v0

In general.

If you are any good at what you do, degree or no, most of what you know is self taught.

Some people go to school and only learn what they need to take the tests. OK for getting a grade but not too useful when it comes to the real world.

This speaks to the difficulty of creating a good test and grading in general.

Getting good grades is a skill that is not tightly linked to learning or understanding the subject. If you can get far enough inside a profs head you know what his test will contain.

An education is like most everything else. It is only worth what you put into it. Tempered by your understanding of the process.

Exactly.

Torben

BeeBop · 30th December 2007, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3v0

In general.

If you are any good at what you do, degree or no, most of what you know is self taught.

Some people go to school and only learn what they need to take the tests. OK for getting a grade but not too useful when it comes to the real world.

This speaks to the difficulty of creating a good test and grading in general.

Getting good grades is a skill that is not tightly linked to learning or understanding the subject. If you can get far enough inside a profs head you know what his test will contain.

An education is like most everything else. It is only worth what you put into it. Tempered by your understanding of the process.

Very Well said! I couldn't agree more.

Quote:

Part of the problem is thinking that you need someone to give you a job. If you have the drive, you can make your own. Doesn't work for everybody, of course.

Probably the path to the most happiness, and the most work. I think the two are connected.

ericgibbs · 30th December 2007, 06:02 PM

hi,
Speaking from personal experience, I was in the employed in electronics from 1950 to 2005.

The basic rules and formula of electronics very rarely change, what changes is the current technology.
A great deal of what you are a wizz kid at today will be in a few years time will be old hat.

In this industry learning the latest technology is a fundamental part being a good engineer, today and tomorrow and the day after.
[ I think Nigel G, will know exactly what I am saying]

At my ripe age of 75 years I still enjoy learning and using the latest technology,
all being well, when my time comes 'I will die with the pedal to the metal'

Regards

**Nigel Goodwin** · 30th December 2007, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ericgibbs

hi,
Speaking from personal experience, I was in the employed in electronics from 1950 to 2005.

The basic rules and formula of electronics very rarely change, what changes is the current technology.
A great deal of what you are a wizz kid at today will be in a few years time will be old hat.

In this industry learning the latest technology is a fundamental part being a good engineer, today and tomorrow and the day after.
[ I think Nigel G, will know exactly what I am saying]

Yes, you have to keep up with new technology, otherwise you're left behind.

Quote:

At my ripe age of 75 years I still enjoy learning and using the latest technology,
all being well, when my time comes 'I will die with the pedal to the metal'

That's when you put your foot on the wrong pedal!

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29th December 2007, 06:41 PM	(permalink)
neon	An education is a must to live nowdays. Bt education with a degree and diplomas means nothing unless the individual learned what he was supposed to learn. I have met many educated idiots with degrees and diplomas. reminds me of profesional students.Then again I have met people with not much formal education that knew more about things then the educated lot.

30th December 2007, 12:11 AM	(permalink)
audioguru	I am finished with math. Next tutoring I do will be philosophy or philanthropy. __________________ Uncle $crooge

30th December 2007, 03:13 AM	(permalink)
3v0	In general. If you are any good at what you do, degree or no, most of what you know is self taught. Some people go to school and only learn what they need to take the tests. OK for getting a grade but not too useful when it comes to the real world. This speaks to the difficulty of creating a good test and grading in general. Getting good grades is a skill that is not tightly linked to learning or understanding the subject. If you can get far enough inside a profs head you know what his test will contain. An education is like most everything else. It is only worth what you put into it. Tempered by your understanding of the process.

30th December 2007, 06:02 PM	(permalink)
ericgibbs	hi, Speaking from personal experience, I was in the employed in electronics from 1950 to 2005. The basic rules and formula of electronics very rarely change, what changes is the current technology. A great deal of what you are a wizz kid at today will be in a few years time will be old hat. In this industry learning the latest technology is a fundamental part being a good engineer, today and tomorrow and the day after. [ I think Nigel G, will know exactly what I am saying] At my ripe age of 75 years I still enjoy learning and using the latest technology, all being well, when my time comes 'I will die with the pedal to the metal' Regards __________________ Eric "Good enough is Perfect" PIC tutorials: Gramo's: www.digital-diy.net/ Bill's: www.blueroomelectronics.com/