bristol188

Hi All This is a bit off subject, but it is electronic. I watched an air crash show
on TV the one where the pilot shut down the wrong engine. I just could not believe that there would not be a malfunction light for each engine. Any comments, I realize it is probably old hat but well.
Thanks

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Rog.

If it comes down slower than it went up, it's a landing.
Vice versa, it could be a problem.

Papabravo

If you've ever been in a cockpit in an emergency you can well understand how things can continue to go wrong. It is a matter of no surprise to me.

j.p.bill

Remember the first Airbus? It had a fully auromated landing routine in the computer. It became active at low altitude when flaps and landing gear was down.

The pilot flying the demo at the Paris Airshow was told not to fly lower than so many meters while the flaps and gear were down. He had to show off, and went below the magic altitude while on a path to a small patch of woods. The computer took over and landed him (no off button) in the trees.

Who was the more stupid - the pilot or the company that provided the flight control software?

jpanhalt

As with almost everything in flying, there is a protocol and checklist to follow in emergencies. Many (if not most) small, twin-engine aircraft do not have warning lights for which engine is "out." Nevertheless, one is trained to detect which engine is out by the feel of the aircraft. The changes are quite distinct ("dead foot, dead engine"). Plus, there are confirmatory procedures that should/must be followed.

So, in theory, there is no problem. In reality, and with the pressures of a true emergency (i.e., what were the flight conditions at the time, was it IFR, was it take off or landing, over-loading, icing, turbulence, etc.), you may tell yourself it is "the left engine", but still shut down the wrong engine. Frankly, I don't believe an added light on the instrument panel would help, and the main reason for that opinion is that you would still need to confirm it and shut down the correct engine.

The urgency is not so much to shut down the bad engine, but to stabilize the aircraft and apply appropriate thrust to both engines (only one will respond). Of course, that is assuming there is not something horribly wrong with the bad engine that would require more immediate attention. Appropriate thrust may also mean to reduce throttle on both engines, depending on the situation. John

Papabravo

We always used to say there are two kinds of pilots:
Those who have pranged an airframe,
And those who are about to...

bristol188

Hi PB That's true, but you are trained to scan the instruments in order of descending importance. A malfunction light is high on the list. They did not appear to be in immanent danger at first. I'm not a pilot worse luck. Still, not to old to try though.
Thanks

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Rog.

If it comes down slower than it went up, it's a landing.
Vice versa, it could be a problem.

Papabravo

Probably the scariest part of my flight training was emergency landings at night. The essential part of the procedure was to turn on the landing light at 200' AGL. If we didn't like what we saw we were supposed to turn it off!

BTW it's fairly common to land at a faster airspeed then you use for takeoff, especially if you attempt a wheel landing in a tail-dragger.

bristol188

You are right PB. My signature is ment more as a skit than fact.

Papabravo

Still, It's fun to reminisce.

ericgibbs

hi rog,
If this crash happened in the UK Jan during the 1980/90's. the reason why the guys shut down the wrong engine is because
the alarm light wiring had been crossed over!.

If there had been a forward looking camera, mounted aft, they could have seen the problem engine.

In my R.A.F. days [1950's] I was always told 'any landing you walk away from is a good landing'.

I was flying as a 'passenger' with my neighbour, a Flight Engineer, doing training circuits and bumps at night,
with 4 other Lincoln bombers.

We had done a couple of circuits and on the third run, the pilot veered off as he had seen an unexpected light on the runway.
Ground control told him it was just a faulty light, so we landed, half down the runway we saw the back end of the previous plane looming up.
Crunch, we ploughed into the back of it.
Our inboard, stb prop went along his rear fuselage like bacon slicer, chopping every 18 inch's,
his tail rudder upright cut thru our stb wing.

Both planes were right off's, the odd light the pilot had seen was the tail light of the previous plane which had not cleared the runway.

If you have seen 'MythBusters' TV doing the same fuselage myth, it can happen, it confirmed!

If you like scary take offs/landing try Johannesburg in South Africa during one of their frequent thunderstorms.
I've done it many times and they are the worst Ive known, definitely white knuckle

__________________
Eric
"Good enough is Perfect"

PIC tutorials:
Gramo's: www.digital-diy.net/
Bill's: www.blueroomelectronics.com/

Pommie

Any light plane pilot will tell you that the response to a wing fire on take off or landing is to turn toward the fire, that way the flames are blown away from the cockpit. In the Manchester air disaster, they did the exact opposite and a lot of people died as a result. The Wiki report above states that the pilot didn't know there was a fire but that is not what was reported at the time and I think this was when cameras were first suggested.

Mike.

ericgibbs

hi mike,
I was thinking of the plane that came down at the side of the motorway in the Midlands. I know it was Jan and IIRC 1990's.
I remember and agree about Manchester incident.

__________________
Eric
"Good enough is Perfect"

PIC tutorials:
Gramo's: www.digital-diy.net/
Bill's: www.blueroomelectronics.com/

bristol188

Yes that was the one in the show. The engine was just sending out sparks from the damaged fan, it did not catch fire untill allmost at tuchdown. By then the good engine would not restart. Al well!! But not funny.
Thanks

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Rog.

If it comes down slower than it went up, it's a landing.
Vice versa, it could be a problem.

audioguru

Some pilots kniow what they are doing.

In Canada, the first Boeing 767 had a coast to coast trip but didn't have enough fuel. The people fueling it got mixed up with imperial gallons and liters.

It ran out of fuel about half-way in the trip and the pilot was lucky to remember an abandonned airstrip, was lucky to find it and glided in for a perfect landing. It scared the car racers who were there.

Another big jet ran out of fuel half-way across the Atlantic because of a leak and a mixup. It glided for a long way and made a safe landing on an island.

Can you imagine what it is like to glide a big jet? Too far away or too close;
too high or too low; too fast or too slow. It is amazing that it can be done.

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Uncle $crooge

Papabravo

You should compute the lift of such a big set of wings at even a modest airspeed. The number is truly impressive.