toner transfer with silicone impreg paper - Electronic Circuits Projects Diagrams Free

justDIY · 10th March 2007, 03:21 PM

has anyone tried the toner transfer method using silicone impregnated paper (sold as "parchment paper" in the baking isle, not to be confused with waxed paper)? I was doing some baking yesterday and the idea hit me that the paper is nice and thin, and would work well for lining up double sided layouts - as it's much more translucent than photo paper.

it has a very low surface friction, not as non-stick as teflon but pretty slippery - if the printer can deposit toner on it, the toner should be eager to come off again for something like copper clad that's been burnished with steel wool.

the package claims not to use past 450F, so the heat of the iron should be well below that range - I don't know about the heat of the fuser in the printer... since the silicone is part of the paper, rather than a coating applied on top, it shouldn't come off during the ironing process.

what are your thoughts?

Hero999 · 10th March 2007, 05:04 PM

I've tried it and it didn't work. The paper is too wrinkly and it tends to get baggy when you apply the iron. I couldn't get the toner to form solid traces on the board.

philba · 10th March 2007, 05:21 PM

You should try the backing to peel-off labels. temperature and pressure stable.

Hero999 · 10th March 2007, 05:25 PM

I bet you can even reuse it a couple of times!

**3v0** · 10th March 2007, 09:50 PM

I tried baking parchment, alu foil, various brands of printer paper etc. The problem with the parchment wast that it was too slick. The toner would not stick to it.

For a a buck or two a sheet you can get stuff that work without screwing around (Pulsar or P&P Blue). Why mess with it.

Sceadwian · 10th March 2007, 10:39 PM

I would really like to see someone try something like what this page sells
http://www.smallparts.com/products/d...ons/vt-vte.cfm

It'd be cheaper than press and peel blue and re-useable.

**3v0** · 11th March 2007, 04:05 AM

Both Pulsar and P&B blue use a layer of another material over the somewhat pitty toner to provide dense traces and pads.

Even if then toner sticks enough to transfer, and if you find some way to release the sheet from the toner, it still will not work as well as the commerical products.

You can skip the transfer step and mod an old laser printer to print directly on the copper clad.

The problem there is that you will have to invest in a laser printer cartridge for the old laser printer.

evandude · 11th March 2007, 05:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sceadwian

I would really like to see someone try something like what this page sells
http://www.smallparts.com/products/d...ons/vt-vte.cfm

It'd be cheaper than press and peel blue and re-useable.

once again, good luck getting the toner printed on there in the first place. The reason press-n-peel blue works is that it's got the intermediate blue layer that lets the toner stick very well during printing, but peel off very easily after ironing... Plus the extra layer of etch resist, as 3v0 pointed out.

Printing directly onto a sheet like you are suggesting is just a balance between toner adhesion during printing, and ease of peeling after ironing, based on how slick the sheet is. I've heard mention of people printing directly onto regular transparency sheets (which are a bit less extreme than teflon) and peeling, but haven't heard any great success stories.

As a sidenote, I know everyone always complains about the price of press-n-peel and similar products, but really, it generally costs under $2 a sheet, and when you use it properly, which is easy, (cut out only as much as you need and tape it to a piece of plain paper for printing), there is very little waste, and it works out to something like 2-3 cents per square inch. That's cheaper than the PCB it gets put on, and probably on par with the cost of the etching solution you use to etch it. Yeah, it's a small investment, as you have to buy quite a few sheets at a time, but still...

BeeBop · 11th March 2007, 04:16 PM

I'd have to agree with Evan, the price per board is quite low for Pulsar or Press and Peel. Also get the second layer (Pulsar uses green TRF,) because it does work very well. I went from trying to make double sided boards to 'getting everything on one side,' because I could make the traces that much thinner.
I think Philba offers a good idea, though, with the label backing, if you really want to spend the time researching alternatives. But then again, if your time is worth anything, then the existing technologies would be the best route to go.

evandude · 11th March 2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeeBop

But then again, if your time is worth anything, then the existing technologies would be the best route to go.

I definitely agree there. If you stop and think about it, the few extra cents that it costs per board to use press-n-peel over something cheaper like photo paper, only works out to be worth a few minutes of your time at most, even at minimum wage... and just seconds if you consider your time worth a more suitable hourly wage of an engineer or tech - so the time savings of using a fast, easy, reliable method can really pay for themselves many times over.

In any case, if anyone does feel motivated enough to try out some of these suggested transfer methods, I'm sure everyone would be very interested in seeing the results. I'm very happy with press-n-peel, so I don't feel the need to experiment with new methods myself, but that's not to say I wouldn't switch to something else if someone else experimented with it first and found it to be great.

Hero999 · 11th March 2007, 04:51 PM

If you want to go down the cheap route of using something like PTFE or magazine paper then a fine line permanent marker is always useful for filling in any gaps in the toner.

BeeBop · 11th March 2007, 05:04 PM

Yes,

Quote:

fine line permanent marker is always useful for filling in any gaps in the toner.

but if you do it right before etching, it can and will dissolve. It also takes a lot of time for touch ups.

Hero999 · 11th March 2007, 05:54 PM

Perhaps you used a cheap and nasty pen. When I use magazine paper it doesn't take that long to fill in the odd gap because there aren't that many.

justDIY · 12th March 2007, 01:03 AM

So far I'm getting good results with HP premium plus photo paper ... downside is it costs more than pnp blue ... I'll try some of that next ... lowest cost isn't the big objective here, just trying to think of using what I have versus sending out for different stuff

I'm still a firm believer in photolithograpgy, but I needed an alternative method to produce a one-off board, since with my photo setup I produce an entire 4.5x6.5 inch panel at once.

From my supplier I pay $2.95 for a 4x6 sheet of 1/16 1oz copper clad plain, or $3.25 for 4.5x6.5 sheet of 1/16 1oz positive acting copper clad.

**3v0** · 12th March 2007, 03:40 AM

The commercial transfer papers work well and are not expensive.

Pulsar even has a method to do silk screens. At this point a better board would have plated through holes, and solder masks. Yup, send it out.

For me the tools and methods can be as interesting as the actual projects. But at this point the transfer process is, for me, a done deal. Experimenting with it is falls under the same catagory as making my own wire.

There seem to be some journey that people have to make by themselves. Maybe this is one of them.

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10th March 2007, 03:21 PM	(permalink)
justDIY	toner transfer with silicone impreg paper has anyone tried the toner transfer method using silicone impregnated paper (sold as "parchment paper" in the baking isle, not to be confused with waxed paper)? I was doing some baking yesterday and the idea hit me that the paper is nice and thin, and would work well for lining up double sided layouts - as it's much more translucent than photo paper. it has a very low surface friction, not as non-stick as teflon but pretty slippery - if the printer can deposit toner on it, the toner should be eager to come off again for something like copper clad that's been burnished with steel wool. the package claims not to use past 450F, so the heat of the iron should be well below that range - I don't know about the heat of the fuser in the printer... since the silicone is part of the paper, rather than a coating applied on top, it shouldn't come off during the ironing process. what are your thoughts? __________________ If you don't have a planet, what good are gold bars? want to contact me directly? gmail gordonthree check out my project website: http://projects.dimension-x.net Favorite numbers: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

10th March 2007, 05:04 PM	(permalink)
Hero999	I've tried it and it didn't work. The paper is too wrinkly and it tends to get baggy when you apply the iron. I couldn't get the toner to form solid traces on the board. __________________ I also post at the following sites: http://www.stop-microsoft.org http://www.heated-debates.com Screen name: Aloone_Jonez

10th March 2007, 05:21 PM	(permalink)
philba	You should try the backing to peel-off labels. temperature and pressure stable.

10th March 2007, 05:25 PM	(permalink)
Hero999	I bet you can even reuse it a couple of times! __________________ I also post at the following sites: http://www.stop-microsoft.org http://www.heated-debates.com Screen name: Aloone_Jonez

10th March 2007, 09:50 PM	(permalink)
3v0	I tried baking parchment, alu foil, various brands of printer paper etc. The problem with the parchment wast that it was too slick. The toner would not stick to it. For a a buck or two a sheet you can get stuff that work without screwing around (Pulsar or P&P Blue). Why mess with it.

10th March 2007, 10:39 PM	(permalink)
Sceadwian	I would really like to see someone try something like what this page sells http://www.smallparts.com/products/d...ons/vt-vte.cfm It'd be cheaper than press and peel blue and re-useable. __________________ "Because I be what I be. I would tell you what you want to know if I could, mum, but I be a cat, and no cat anywhere ever gave anyone a straight answer, har har."

11th March 2007, 04:05 AM	(permalink)
3v0	Both Pulsar and P&B blue use a layer of another material over the somewhat pitty toner to provide dense traces and pads. Even if then toner sticks enough to transfer, and if you find some way to release the sheet from the toner, it still will not work as well as the commerical products. You can skip the transfer step and mod an old laser printer to print directly on the copper clad. The problem there is that you will have to invest in a laser printer cartridge for the old laser printer.

11th March 2007, 04:16 PM	(permalink)
BeeBop	I'd have to agree with Evan, the price per board is quite low for Pulsar or Press and Peel. Also get the second layer (Pulsar uses green TRF,) because it does work very well. I went from trying to make double sided boards to 'getting everything on one side,' because I could make the traces that much thinner. I think Philba offers a good idea, though, with the label backing, if you really want to spend the time researching alternatives. But then again, if your time is worth anything, then the existing technologies would be the best route to go.

11th March 2007, 04:51 PM	(permalink)
Hero999	If you want to go down the cheap route of using something like PTFE or magazine paper then a fine line permanent marker is always useful for filling in any gaps in the toner. __________________ I also post at the following sites: http://www.stop-microsoft.org http://www.heated-debates.com Screen name: Aloone_Jonez

11th March 2007, 05:54 PM	(permalink)
Hero999	Perhaps you used a cheap and nasty pen. When I use magazine paper it doesn't take that long to fill in the odd gap because there aren't that many. __________________ I also post at the following sites: http://www.stop-microsoft.org http://www.heated-debates.com Screen name: Aloone_Jonez

12th March 2007, 01:03 AM	(permalink)
justDIY	So far I'm getting good results with HP premium plus photo paper ... downside is it costs more than pnp blue ... I'll try some of that next ... lowest cost isn't the big objective here, just trying to think of using what I have versus sending out for different stuff I'm still a firm believer in photolithograpgy, but I needed an alternative method to produce a one-off board, since with my photo setup I produce an entire 4.5x6.5 inch panel at once. From my supplier I pay $2.95 for a 4x6 sheet of 1/16 1oz copper clad plain, or $3.25 for 4.5x6.5 sheet of 1/16 1oz positive acting copper clad. __________________ If you don't have a planet, what good are gold bars? want to contact me directly? gmail gordonthree check out my project website: http://projects.dimension-x.net Favorite numbers: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

12th March 2007, 03:40 AM	(permalink)
3v0	The commercial transfer papers work well and are not expensive. Pulsar even has a method to do silk screens. At this point a better board would have plated through holes, and solder masks. Yup, send it out. For me the tools and methods can be as interesting as the actual projects. But at this point the transfer process is, for me, a done deal. Experimenting with it is falls under the same catagory as making my own wire. There seem to be some journey that people have to make by themselves. Maybe this is one of them.