Waveform problem AC or DC or ... - Electronic Circuits Projects Diagrams Free

TheOne · 13th December 2004, 05:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechie

I believe that any decision on whether any waveform is AC or DC must include a clear definition of the voltage reference point used (assuming we ignore steady voltage, varying current scenarios?).

In my attached drawing is a waveform (does it matter about the shape??)
If you use the green line as your point of reference then I think everyone will agree that the waveform is AC (ignoring the pulse wave bit at the end :? - see later)

With the blue line as refernce the same waveform becomes DC? I think NOT - I see it as DC with a superimposed AC waveform - how else would you explain the operation of a simple common-emitter amplifier?

The case of the AC waveform (green ref.) is OK but for the pulse wave as this would tend to result in more energy flowing one way than the other, if a capacitor were used to remove any DC offset then the RED line would be closer to 'neutral' bias.

Maybe this is the key - if there is a neutral net energy flow (flow one way is eventually cancelled by energy flow the other way) then the waveform is AC -- if not then there MUST be some DC present.

http://www.electro-tech-online.com/v...ghlight=#64556

Guys/Gals, you touch a very interesting topic. After reading this post I could not resist in giving the following problem together with a poll as to the correct answer.

Problem as per attachment is as follows:
I show you a scope waveform. The only clues I give you is that it is a pulsed input, frequency 1kHz, 2% duty cycle and an amplitude of 5vp-p
The yellow line is the ground reference setting for the scope.

Question:
From your observation of the scope display and settings, would you say the properties of the input is; (options displayed next to scope)

1/ Pulse with 0v as a baseline reference and +5v as the peak?
2/ Pulse with -2.5v as the baseline and +2.5v as the upper peak?
3/ Pulse with +5v as the baseline and +10v as the peak?
4/ Pulse with -10v as the baseline and -5v as the peak?
5/ Impossible to say?

I will give the answer after a few days or so or the moment we have at least 100 votes.
(Try to answer without digging out your scope to check, and if you know the answer don't post it (just vote) and spoil the fun for others ) :lol:
And don't worry, I can't see who answered what

This was a question to my students once in an exam

TheOne · 13th December 2004, 01:33 PM

Wow, it is a day later - 100 views, only 3 votes?

samcheetah · 13th December 2004, 03:22 PM

there you go

now there are 4 votes :lol:

actually there is one thing that i cant understand in this picture. how much is the Y postion knob turned?? has it been shifted one divisions or 10 divisions? its really hard to tell

TheOne · 13th December 2004, 03:26 PM

The Y that is turned is for chan 2 that is not in use

samcheetah · 13th December 2004, 03:35 PM

oh okay i get it now.

i wanna vote again :lol:

Gaston · 13th December 2004, 05:55 PM

i see 6 different waveforms i dont understand

TheOne · 13th December 2004, 06:45 PM

Just look at the waveform on the scope and the possible waveforms 1 to 4 as an answer, the top one was inserted as a ref to a previous post as in the link provided.

lord loh. · 4th March 2005, 06:37 PM

I nont seen 100 votes comming up...And I am dying to get the answer....

martinH · 4th March 2005, 06:53 PM

Well I voted and am dyeing to know the answer.

bonxer · 4th March 2005, 07:06 PM

vote++;

89 to go. :lol:

Dean Huster · 4th March 2005, 11:35 PM

The illustration proves that analog scopes are far superior to digital models!

Dean

Dngrsone · 4th March 2005, 11:50 PM

It begs the question, though... at what frequency does one consider pulsed DC an AC waveform?

bonxer · 5th March 2005, 12:11 AM

Our good friend Fourier has some fun ideas.

lord loh. · 5th March 2005, 03:22 AM

Anyone intrested in carrying forward the idea ?

http://www.electro-tech-online.com/v...ic.php?t=14506

Dean Huster · 5th March 2005, 05:00 AM

Consider the current that the waveform would produce in a load. Does it always go the same direction if not zero? Then it's DC. Does it ever reverse direction? If so, it's AC.

That makes a power supply with ripple a DC voltage. That makes the collector voltage of an active CE amplifier DC. Still, in electronics, we deal with separate entities: it's ripple voltage and we measure it with an oscilloscope or AC voltmeter to determine percentage of ripple; it's an AC signal riding on a DC level and we measure the amplitude of the AC component to determine amplifier gain.

For the most part, it makes the while issue nothing more than a word game ... semantics. I don't know how many times I've had to correct a student with a voltage measurement because he/she had the coupling switch on the scope in the wrong position.

Dean

View Poll Results: Which input wave is shown on the scope
1	5	31.25%
2	1	6.25%
3	0	0%
4	3	18.75%
5	7	43.75%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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13th December 2004, 01:33 PM	(permalink)
TheOne	Wow, it is a day later - 100 views, only 3 votes?

13th December 2004, 03:22 PM	(permalink)
samcheetah	there you go now there are 4 votes :lol: actually there is one thing that i cant understand in this picture. how much is the Y postion knob turned?? has it been shifted one divisions or 10 divisions? its really hard to tell

13th December 2004, 03:26 PM	(permalink)
TheOne	The Y that is turned is for chan 2 that is not in use

13th December 2004, 03:35 PM	(permalink)
samcheetah	oh okay i get it now. i wanna vote again :lol:

13th December 2004, 05:55 PM	(permalink)
Gaston	i see 6 different waveforms i dont understand

13th December 2004, 06:45 PM	(permalink)
TheOne	Just look at the waveform on the scope and the possible waveforms 1 to 4 as an answer, the top one was inserted as a ref to a previous post as in the link provided.

4th March 2005, 06:37 PM	(permalink)
lord loh.	I nont seen 100 votes comming up...And I am dying to get the answer.... __________________ Bharath Bhushan Lohray. M.Sc. Electronics.

4th March 2005, 06:53 PM	(permalink)
martinH	Well I voted and am dyeing to know the answer.

4th March 2005, 07:06 PM	(permalink)
bonxer	vote++; 89 to go. :lol:

4th March 2005, 11:35 PM	(permalink)
Dean Huster	The illustration proves that analog scopes are far superior to digital models! Dean __________________ Dean Huster, Electronics Curmudgeon Contributing Editor emeritus, "Q & A", of the former "Poptronics" magazine (formerly "Popular Electronics" and "Electronics Now" magazines). R.I.P.

4th March 2005, 11:50 PM	(permalink)
Dngrsone	It begs the question, though... at what frequency does one consider pulsed DC an AC waveform? __________________ http://xs64.xs.to/pics/06030/Banner4.gif

5th March 2005, 12:11 AM	(permalink)
bonxer	Our good friend Fourier has some fun ideas.

5th March 2005, 03:22 AM	(permalink)
lord loh.	Anyone intrested in carrying forward the idea ? http://www.electro-tech-online.com/v...ic.php?t=14506 __________________ Bharath Bhushan Lohray. M.Sc. Electronics.

5th March 2005, 05:00 AM	(permalink)
Dean Huster	Consider the current that the waveform would produce in a load. Does it always go the same direction if not zero? Then it's DC. Does it ever reverse direction? If so, it's AC. That makes a power supply with ripple a DC voltage. That makes the collector voltage of an active CE amplifier DC. Still, in electronics, we deal with separate entities: it's ripple voltage and we measure it with an oscilloscope or AC voltmeter to determine percentage of ripple; it's an AC signal riding on a DC level and we measure the amplitude of the AC component to determine amplifier gain. For the most part, it makes the while issue nothing more than a word game ... semantics. I don't know how many times I've had to correct a student with a voltage measurement because he/she had the coupling switch on the scope in the wrong position. Dean __________________ Dean Huster, Electronics Curmudgeon Contributing Editor emeritus, "Q & A", of the former "Poptronics" magazine (formerly "Popular Electronics" and "Electronics Now" magazines). R.I.P.