LED Project... Is the diagram correct? - Page 3 - Electronic Circuits Projects Diagrams Free

audioguru · 12th November 2004, 03:25 PM

Hi Magno,
I am sorry for mis-spelling your name before, I have corrected it.
I would rather not connect the top of the LM3914's divider to the 555's pin 5 because it would change the 555's timing period. Besides, Max has only 6 LEDs so the top of the LM3914's divider will have to be at a much higher voltage anyway. Actually, since the top of the LM3914's divider will have to be above the supply rail, it is probably best to reduce the voltage at the divider's low end, and just use the last 6 outputs of the LM3914.

Maxer · 12th November 2004, 04:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioguru

Hi Max,
Sorry for my delay.
I don't like the way your new diode pulls down the 555's pin 5 so low that the flip-flop inside the 555 may "latch" and not be able to be triggered by pin 2.

To avoid the problem of a delay on the 1st cycle of the 555, I have been thinking to leave the 555 and the current source transistor powered whenever the bike is running, with pins 2 + 6 and the cap held at a voltage just a little lower than pin2's threshold voltage. When you activate a turn signal switch, the LM3914 will be powered and immediately indicate the 1st LED. At the same time, the voltage limiter on the cap will be released and it ramps normally along with the other LEDs.

I will sketch a "voltage limiter" and the resistors for the current source soon.

Allright I came up with this finally and ordered the stuff i need. But i still want to try out with a voltage limiter. Also I looked at my bikes wiring when the switch is on for right or left turn signal it runs threw a turn signal relay and then to the bulbs and the indicator lights. will that relay effect this?

audioguru · 13th November 2004, 03:14 PM

Hi Max,
This project is becoming a can of worms.
The 2.2K resistor that you put across the cap steals current from the current source so the cap will no longer charge linearly, and may not even charge high enough to allow the 555 to work.

You mentioned a relay. I didn't know bikes use an expensive and failure-prone relay flasher when an inexpensive, simple electronic circuit can flash reliably. In a car, its clicking reminds you to turn it off, but on a motorcycle can you hear it?
Why use this complicated 555 circuit when the flasher can do it very well?
The flasher can apply power to the current source transistor which linearly charges the cap. The LM3914 is also powered and indicates the rising cap voltage on the LEDs. When the flasher clicks off, the LEDs also turn off and a P-channel junction FET quickly discharges the cap. When the flasher applies power, the FET is turned off.
Really simple, do you like it?

Maxer · 13th November 2004, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioguru

Hi Max,
This project is becoming a can of worms.
The 2.2K resistor that you put across the cap steals current from the current source so the cap will no longer charge linearly, and may not even charge high enough to allow the 555 to work.

You mentioned a relay. I didn't know bikes use an expensive and failure-prone relay flasher when an inexpensive, simple electronic circuit can flash reliably. In a car, its clicking reminds you to turn it off, but on a motorcycle can you hear it?
Why use this complicated 555 circuit when the flasher can do it very well?
The flasher can apply power to the current source transistor which linearly charges the cap. The LM3914 is also powered and indicates the rising cap voltage on the LEDs. When the flasher clicks off, the LEDs also turn off and a P-channel junction FET quickly discharges the cap. When the flasher applies power, the FET is turned off.
Really simple, do you like it?

damn i wish i would of looked at my bikes wiring schematic earlier because that would of saved me some time and money. well we can try it that way.
i don't hear no noise on the bike even if there was i wouldn't be able to hear it because exasht noise, wind and helmet. But it does Flash. so a light comes up when indicator is turned on. Relay is used for all 4 signals (left front, left back, right front, right back) When i hit the switch for right or left it just grounds the relay and it activates it. If i use the flasher to apply power to current source transistor, will have to mess with the flasher's wiring? or can i still use the wiring from the previous indicators? (pos / neg) sorry about dumb questions but i am still learning you guys are far more advance then me. do i need to find out what ype or flasher relay is it or anything?
thanks i guess we will have to draw a new diagram for this method
max

audioguru · 13th November 2004, 05:39 PM

Hi Max,
One thing about the flasher relay on cars: the flash rate becomes very fast when a light bulb is burnt out. So it might be fast on your bike when using low-current LEDs instead of a high-current light bulb. If you use the LM3914 in its Bar mode, the rate might start fast then slow during each scan.

For cars, a "heavy-duty electronic" flasher was available to drive additional lights on trailers, etc. Their rate doesn't change with load changes. Maybe they are still available and will fit your bike.

If your bike had 12V light bulbs, this circuit (the current source transistor circuit, the LM3914 and the new FET control) connects to their wiring. If it had LEDs, you must connect before their current-limiting resistor.

Maxer · 13th November 2004, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioguru

Hi Max,
One thing about the flasher relay on cars: the flash rate becomes very fast when a light bulb is burnt out. So it might be fast on your bike when using low-current LEDs instead of a high-current light bulb. If you use the LM3914 in its Bar mode, the rate might start fast then slow during each scan.

For cars, a "heavy-duty electronic" flasher was available to drive additional lights on trailers, etc. Their rate doesn't change with load changes. Maybe they are still available and will fit your bike.

If your bike had 12V light bulbs, this circuit (the current source transistor circuit, the LM3914 and the new FET control) connects to their wiring. If it had LEDs, you must connect before their current-limiting resistor.

I don't think it flashes "faster" when one is burnt out but it does flash faster when you change out the stock bulbs (they were never LED's) some people say that when they added LED's to just Flash they would flash faster then stock bulbs did. Also i think if one rea bulb is broken then other rear one doesn't work. i will reconfirm this tommaro i have to get to bed but i think either way fast or not as long as the Bar mode comes on where people can see its a faste bar mode not just a flash it should be good to go. so lets just try that with the new FET control. and i will give you specs of how bulbs work on the bike for sure tommaro
thanks
Max

Maxer · 14th November 2004, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxer

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioguru

Hi Max,
One thing about the flasher relay on cars: the flash rate becomes very fast when a light bulb is burnt out. So it might be fast on your bike when using low-current LEDs instead of a high-current light bulb. If you use the LM3914 in its Bar mode, the rate might start fast then slow during each scan.

For cars, a "heavy-duty electronic" flasher was available to drive additional lights on trailers, etc. Their rate doesn't change with load changes. Maybe they are still available and will fit your bike.

If your bike had 12V light bulbs, this circuit (the current source transistor circuit, the LM3914 and the new FET control) connects to their wiring. If it had LEDs, you must connect before their current-limiting resistor.

I don't think it flashes "faster" when one is burnt out but it does flash faster when you change out the stock bulbs (they were never LED's) some people say that when they added LED's to just Flash they would flash faster then stock bulbs did. Also i think if one rea bulb is broken then other rear one doesn't work. i will reconfirm this tommaro i have to get to bed but i think either way fast or not as long as the Bar mode comes on where people can see its a faste bar mode not just a flash it should be good to go. so lets just try that with the new FET control. and i will give you specs of how bulbs work on the bike for sure tommaro
thanks
Max

Allright this is what my friend told me he owns the same bike, he has LED's in pegs but they only flash no sequencing (barmode)

stock bulbs are 12volt and if one bulb breaks they all will flash faster.
if you put led's in your footpegs they will flash faster if there is no relay inline.
basicly if the stock configuration is altered, it will always not flash correctly unless the output of the bulbs stay exactly the same

magno_grail · 15th November 2004, 10:48 PM

Maxer,
If I had a better idea of what you were trying to do I could have given more useful information. Various make bikes use different methods for flashing the signals. Usually the older bikes use a thermal relay like the antique cars. Current passing through heats a bi-metalic strip which opens the circuit, then cools off and closes again. Low wattage bulbs or one burned out will cause the other bulb to light but not flash (not enough current). That is why LED bulbs do not work in these bikes. Others, like my '97 Triumph use the ECU to flash the bulbs using a relay to carry the current. No change if a bulb burns out or replaced with LEDs.
Older bikes use the opposite signal bulbs to provide the ground path for the dash indicator.
Pre-80's British bikes are positive ground. Everything else, I believe, is negative.
Another point, most high ouput LEDs have a low visibility angle, some as little as 20 degrees. Someone in the next lane might not see your signal if they are too close (disregarding the fact that will not see it anyway as they are too stupid).

Maxer · 16th November 2004, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by magno_grail

Maxer,
If I had a better idea of what you were trying to do I could have given more useful information. Various make bikes use different methods for flashing the signals. Usually the older bikes use a thermal relay like the antique cars. Current passing through heats a bi-metalic strip which opens the circuit, then cools off and closes again. Low wattage bulbs or one burned out will cause the other bulb to light but not flash (not enough current). That is why LED bulbs do not work in these bikes. Others, like my '97 Triumph use the ECU to flash the bulbs using a relay to carry the current. No change if a bulb burns out or replaced with LEDs.
Older bikes use the opposite signal bulbs to provide the ground path for the dash indicator.
Pre-80's British bikes are positive ground. Everything else, I believe, is negative.
Another point, most high ouput LEDs have a low visibility angle, some as little as 20 degrees. Someone in the next lane might not see your signal if they are too close (disregarding the fact that will not see it anyway as they are too stupid).

Hey mango_Grail
Mine uses a Relay but i don't know if its thermal or not. but i do know when one is not working or broken other one still flashes.
what i am tring to do is have a sequnce LED flash rather then just on and off... here is what i want
Oooooo
OOoooo
OOOooo
OOOOoo
OOOOOo
OOOOOO
then back to
Oooooo
and when mode pin is connected to Pin 4 V+ on LM3914
it should have a different sequence like this
Oooooo
oOoooo
ooOooo
oooOoo
ooooOo
oooooO
and i will add a small switch on the project box i place the circuit in. and the box will be placed in my trunk i can change it periodicaly if i want to.. or have the switch in another place in the front but not sure yet.
so i would have 1 circuit per side.
Led's i will be using will have only 20 deg light angle, but the way the LEd's will be set up it should be okay because for front i will be using lower MCD's and higher disspation angles maybe like 30 - 40.
Audioguru brough this to my attention earlier in another posting.
i also have other lighting Mods that are going to be done but i after i figure this one out.

i am looking at the schematic right now and it says "turn signal relay" and it has pos and neg terminals...
neg is connected to the switches. switches activate the turn signals offcourse and also the flashing light on the speedometer display.
and postive wire is used as ground.. again i am not sure because i get confused between "convention flow" and "electron flow" since they are opposite. so i try to imagine the way current would active flow rather then how its named, and i just started some basic electronic courses.
here is my wiring schematic i circled where the flasher relay is. To make it easier i highlighted wires from RElay red is Negative and Blue is Postive also its a 98GSXR 750 its first Fuel injection model out with suzuki.
as seen in the diagram eventually pos side of relay is connected to neg, and bike doesn't shortcuit so i am guessing its a thermal relay? i gotta learn more about these types of relays...
crap i can;t post it because its about 582,347 bytes
can i upload it any where and post the link here?

Maxer · 20th November 2004, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioguru

Hi Max,
This project is becoming a can of worms.
The 2.2K resistor that you put across the cap steals current from the current source so the cap will no longer charge linearly, and may not even charge high enough to allow the 555 to work.

You mentioned a relay. I didn't know bikes use an expensive and failure-prone relay flasher when an inexpensive, simple electronic circuit can flash reliably. In a car, its clicking reminds you to turn it off, but on a motorcycle can you hear it?
Why use this complicated 555 circuit when the flasher can do it very well?
The flasher can apply power to the current source transistor which linearly charges the cap. The LM3914 is also powered and indicates the rising cap voltage on the LEDs. When the flasher clicks off, the LEDs also turn off and a P-channel junction FET quickly discharges the cap. When the flasher applies power, the FET is turned off.
Really simple, do you like it?

Maxer · 2nd December 2004, 06:59 PM

Okay i came up with this....
2 transistors. the flasher wire is the current wire used for indicator because it has pulse threw the bike flasher. and 12V be applied from seprated wire only hot when ignition is on. (gonna do that with a simple automotive relay... connect a current wire that is hot when ignition comes on to the electromagnet and make the connection from battery post the the circut on the other side of magnet) So this is what you were talking about right i am not sure about those resistors. Also if everything looks good can you identify all the values of the resistors and the POT and what type of transistors to use,
thanks
Max

audioguru · 5th December 2004, 04:49 PM

Hi Max,
Sorry for the delay. I have finally finished your circuit and simplified it, I didn't like your changes.
This one should work but may need the 470K resistor changed to match the speed of your flasher.

Maxer · 6th December 2004, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioguru

Hi Max,
Sorry for the delay. I have finally finished your circuit and simplified it, I didn't like your changes.
This one should work but may need the 470K resistor changed to match the speed of your flasher.

HOw many mA to each led? would this work for only white leds running at like 3V or any leds this would work? what controls the sequence rate of the LED's should i just as a POT there so i can adjust accordingly?
Thanks for helping me out i really appreceiate this
max

audioguru · 6th December 2004, 06:33 PM

Hi Max,
The LED current is regulated at about 20mA each, and is determined by R1. That reminds me, you can get rid of R2 and ground pin 8.
You can use any kind of LEDs: red, blue, white , UV or even a mixture of colours.
The scan rate is determined by the 470K resistor and is about 1/2 second.
You can use a 1M linear pot in series with a 180K resistor instead of the 470K resistor if you want to adjust it from 380ms to 1.25 seconds.
This circuit will make all the LEDs off during the other half of the flasher's time.

Maxer · 9th December 2004, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by audioguru

Hi Max,
The LED current is regulated at about 20mA each, and is determined by R1. That reminds me, you can get rid of R2 and ground pin 8.
You can use any kind of LEDs: red, blue, white , UV or even a mixture of colours.
The scan rate is determined by the 470K resistor and is about 1/2 second.
You can use a 1M linear pot in series with a 180K resistor instead of the 470K resistor if you want to adjust it from 380ms to 1.25 seconds.
This circuit will make all the LEDs off during the other half of the flasher's time.

so when flasher is on it will provide power to ckt & charge the cap
we can use a diode that will discharge that cap though that 470/1 W resistor when flasher is off
so what is the use of those transistors?
will the capacitor charge in log or linearly?
If in LOg i wont recognize the small delay right?
thanks
max

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12th November 2004, 03:25 PM	(permalink)
audioguru	Hi Magno, I am sorry for mis-spelling your name before, I have corrected it. I would rather not connect the top of the LM3914's divider to the 555's pin 5 because it would change the 555's timing period. Besides, Max has only 6 LEDs so the top of the LM3914's divider will have to be at a much higher voltage anyway. Actually, since the top of the LM3914's divider will have to be above the supply rail, it is probably best to reduce the voltage at the divider's low end, and just use the last 6 outputs of the LM3914.

13th November 2004, 03:14 PM	(permalink)
audioguru	Hi Max, This project is becoming a can of worms. The 2.2K resistor that you put across the cap steals current from the current source so the cap will no longer charge linearly, and may not even charge high enough to allow the 555 to work. You mentioned a relay. I didn't know bikes use an expensive and failure-prone relay flasher when an inexpensive, simple electronic circuit can flash reliably. In a car, its clicking reminds you to turn it off, but on a motorcycle can you hear it? Why use this complicated 555 circuit when the flasher can do it very well? The flasher can apply power to the current source transistor which linearly charges the cap. The LM3914 is also powered and indicates the rising cap voltage on the LEDs. When the flasher clicks off, the LEDs also turn off and a P-channel junction FET quickly discharges the cap. When the flasher applies power, the FET is turned off. Really simple, do you like it?

13th November 2004, 05:39 PM	(permalink)
audioguru	Hi Max, One thing about the flasher relay on cars: the flash rate becomes very fast when a light bulb is burnt out. So it might be fast on your bike when using low-current LEDs instead of a high-current light bulb. If you use the LM3914 in its Bar mode, the rate might start fast then slow during each scan. For cars, a "heavy-duty electronic" flasher was available to drive additional lights on trailers, etc. Their rate doesn't change with load changes. Maybe they are still available and will fit your bike. If your bike had 12V light bulbs, this circuit (the current source transistor circuit, the LM3914 and the new FET control) connects to their wiring. If it had LEDs, you must connect before their current-limiting resistor.

15th November 2004, 10:48 PM	(permalink)
magno_grail	Maxer, If I had a better idea of what you were trying to do I could have given more useful information. Various make bikes use different methods for flashing the signals. Usually the older bikes use a thermal relay like the antique cars. Current passing through heats a bi-metalic strip which opens the circuit, then cools off and closes again. Low wattage bulbs or one burned out will cause the other bulb to light but not flash (not enough current). That is why LED bulbs do not work in these bikes. Others, like my '97 Triumph use the ECU to flash the bulbs using a relay to carry the current. No change if a bulb burns out or replaced with LEDs. Older bikes use the opposite signal bulbs to provide the ground path for the dash indicator. Pre-80's British bikes are positive ground. Everything else, I believe, is negative. Another point, most high ouput LEDs have a low visibility angle, some as little as 20 degrees. Someone in the next lane might not see your signal if they are too close (disregarding the fact that will not see it anyway as they are too stupid).

2nd December 2004, 06:59 PM	(permalink)
Maxer	Okay i came up with this.... 2 transistors. the flasher wire is the current wire used for indicator because it has pulse threw the bike flasher. and 12V be applied from seprated wire only hot when ignition is on. (gonna do that with a simple automotive relay... connect a current wire that is hot when ignition comes on to the electromagnet and make the connection from battery post the the circut on the other side of magnet) So this is what you were talking about right i am not sure about those resistors. Also if everything looks good can you identify all the values of the resistors and the POT and what type of transistors to use, thanks Max

5th December 2004, 04:49 PM	(permalink)
audioguru	Hi Max, Sorry for the delay. I have finally finished your circuit and simplified it, I didn't like your changes. This one should work but may need the 470K resistor changed to match the speed of your flasher.

6th December 2004, 06:33 PM	(permalink)
audioguru	Hi Max, The LED current is regulated at about 20mA each, and is determined by R1. That reminds me, you can get rid of R2 and ground pin 8. You can use any kind of LEDs: red, blue, white , UV or even a mixture of colours. The scan rate is determined by the 470K resistor and is about 1/2 second. You can use a 1M linear pot in series with a 180K resistor instead of the 470K resistor if you want to adjust it from 380ms to 1.25 seconds. This circuit will make all the LEDs off during the other half of the flasher's time.