Nigel Goodwin

Don't you mean Britain?, not just England? - and did we slaughter Aborigine's?, I thought we mostly just dumped our convicts on them?.

Although certainly Britain was rather conspicuous in conquering large parts of the earth, and created the largest empire known to man (and have since given it back!, or had it taken from them!).

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ThermalRunaway

I was thinking mainly England because I thought it was the English Army, as opposed to the British Army which it would be today - I could be wrong though.

We did dump our convicts in Australia yes, but before that (before it became our territory) we decided to kill all of the aboriginies there, who as you can appreciate weren't too happy about us conquering their land.

Brian

Nigel Goodwin

I don't recall ever hearing 'English Army', at least not for centuries - perhaps since James I or so? (history isn't my strong point!). Much of the 'British' army has tended to be Welsh, Irish, and Scottish - all areas with very strong army traditions.

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ThermalRunaway

Ok I've looked this up and there seems to be some confusion about how the native aboriginies died in Australia. I was of the understanding that we (The British) killed them all, but Wikipedia says that there is a dispute about this. Some claim that the British took the Aboriginie's Children, which led to their population decline, and some people claim that they died because of widespread disease.

Here's a quote:

"The removal of children, that some historians and Indigenous Australians have argued could be considered to constitute genocide by today's understanding,[4] may have made a small contribution to the decline in the indigenous population"

Personally, the fact that the decline in population of the aboriginies directly coincides with our claiming of the land says to me that we killed 'em ;-)

Anyway... how did a topic about lazy people asking us to do their coursework for them lead to this??!?!?

Brian

Nigel Goodwin

Perhaps we're going to 'remove' the lazy people's children, to genetically stamp out lazy people

Having just read the links, I didn't realise you were talking about such recent events! - are you aware of the large numbers of innocent British children who were sent to Australia, basically as slave labour (and again, only last century).

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HiTech

Yes, Vietnam was a tragedy for the US just as Afghanistan was for Russia. As much as our soldiers tried to fight valiantly, there were a number of political and beaurocratical issues that often hindered their success. US public support was also quite low and that was demoralizing to our soldiers while they were there as well as when they returned home. About the only good that came from that war was Americans soon learned to never dis their military men and women, regardless of where and what they are sent to do. Unless a soldier has gone astray from procedure, they deserve our full patriotic support while away or at home.
Somalia was another ill-fated mission, however the powers to be had a heavy hand in allowing things to get afouled. Bill Clinton was a piss-poor Commander-in-chief more focused on chasing skirts and shrugging off problems with taxpayer dollars than to confront them head on and fix them proper like.

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ThermalRunaway

Confront them head on and fix them proper like?! What, you mean like President Bush does?!?!

He certainly confronts people, I'll give you that. He's got the whole World's back up! And I don't mean backup as in support.

<You asked for that >

Brian

HiTech

First of all, Bush and us citizens wouldn't be in a majority of our present situation if Clinton would have done something with binLaden when the Saudis were able to hand him over on a platter to us. Instead, Clinton brushed it aside just as he tried to distract the public from his perjury trial by lobbing a couple of missles into Africa. Carter appeased N. Korea years back with a bunch of financial and other aid to keep them from nuclear advancement... only to have them fund their effort with that money and kick American taxpayers in the teeth. Bush has the testicular fortitude that both Clinton and Carter sorefully lack. He may not be 100% perfect in his methods but he's doing something about the serious issues that can and will eventually come to roost for the US and other world nations. Confronting challenges is never an easy task, and a prez and his staff will never keep everyone happy in the process. Only history will tell someday if all this struggle and cost in money and lives is worth it. Look at the cowardly gov. of Spain, who are now held captive from future terrorist actions. Don't wanna be living there! America is like the big kid on the block... a target always nipped at by those who desire to taunt and test its mettle. Problem is some liberals in this nation believe that dictators, terrorists, corrupt regimes and the like, can all be reasoned with and pursuaded to change for the better given enough money and other aid. Yeah, right!

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ThermalRunaway

Ok. I actually agree with most of what you say, but again there's this whole thing of America perceiving themselves as being the saviours of the planet and the heroes of the world. What about Britain? We have offered substantial military support for the US in the war against Terror, and are continuing to do so at great cost to us. Perhaps we do not offer the same military force that America themselves have, but if we look at things on a scale rather than actual numbers I think it would be fair to say we have contributed equally. More than that, if you disregard the military figures, we have offered a moral support which has given the US much more freedom to do what they wanted. And it doesn't stop there either, there are many other countries who have also supported the US since 9/11.

So why has it always got to be about America kicking ass??


Brian

ThermalRunaway

And one thing which does bother me about this whole war against terror crusade that Bush is embarking on, is that it doesn't seem to be completely truthful. If he were indeed so concerned about terrorist activities that he was willing to take his armed forces into an entire country and bring down a regime, then what about all the other places in the world with similar problems? Where do you stop? Do you wage war against all countries with corrupt regimes? If you apply the logic that Bush so far has, then yes you do. But we hear nothing of his intensions to sort any other problems out.

So personally, I think there was more to him going into Iraq than meets the eye. But as you say, History will tell.

Brian

Nigel Goodwin

And do they invade themselves?, the USA has long supported and trained terrorists, Bin Laden being one of their most famous recent examples!.

Not to mention the USA support for the IRA terrorists!, even down to collection boxes in US bars and sending weapons - the money and weapons collected went to blow up women and children in British streets!.

As terrible as 911 was, and the large office building a few years before (sorry I forget where now, was it Kansas City?) - somehow it only seems 'fair' that such acts should occur on USA soil after their years of sponsoring terrorism round the globe!.

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AllVol

The office building spoken of was the Muir Federal building in Oklahoma City, and that was not a terrorist activity in the correct sense of the word. That action was, in retaliation for the incident earlier in Waco, a companion demonstration against the government of the US. Thankfully, the action served not to enflame our citizenry, but to call pressure on the so-called "patriots" behind the attack and drive them underground.

For their part, however, those who killed men, women and children in Oklahoma City did have a grievance. At the time, our system of checks and balances was considerably off-kilter as a result of a left-leaning Supreme Court, an ineffectual Executive, and a politically divided Legislative Branch. Thankfully, the pendelum has begun its inexorable swing back.

While I'm at it, let me express thanks to our allies who continue to stand with us in our search for right. And please do not judge us by our news media.

AllVol

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BeeBop

I guess I can put away my guilt for thread-jacking!

HiTech,
To be sure:
I don't disagree with this, nor do I wish to downplay the good deeds done by your country. What does give me pause, though, it the arrogant way you brag about it.

According to that sig, there are only two other kinds of countries: those who you have helped, and those who you have 'kicked in the ass.' There are, as some others pointed out, many which don't fit into your little condescending categories.

I have many American friends, who have been quite hurt (justifiably so) by their reception in other parts of the globe. My - very tongue in cheek - remark, was suggesting that a large part of the reason for so many people hating your country, is this arrogance, which is
I don't think that by making a statement such as this, in big blue text, you are doing your country or its people, any favor.

But, keep talking, you are showing what you are made of. You were critical, perhaps in a tongue in cheek way, of JimB, who, by my reading of this thread, uses the English language so much better than you do. I won't list all your linguistic short-comings, but there are many!

What really disturbs me, is your cowboy attitude:
Do you really think that countries like China would just sit on the sidelines? Do you really think that the rest of the people on the planet would not have complaints about the pollution and global damage which would result? Thankfully, your administration has more ability to exercise reason over passion than you do.

Also, blaming the current situation on past administrations is not a solution either. All people make mistakes and misjudgments, which lead to difficult situations. Blaming what is now, on the past never resolves it; this is the trap that alcoholics, angry people, and drug addicts get into, and can't get out of. These types of people also think in only black and white, while the world around is actually complex, and there are a multiplicity of viewpoints.

Now, that said, I am in a country where, to my chagrin, many people refuse to acknowledge the tremendous help the US has given them, again, and again. What I am suggesting is that flaunting an attitude like yours - that of superiority - is what is generating the mistrust and animosity toward your fellow country men, which most of them do not deserve.

HiTech

BeeBop,
Perhaps we should have stayed home during the Korean Conflict and let things take its course. You'd be living a totally different kind of life today... prolly not even allowed to contribute to this forum, let alone have access to the internet. Your last comments are on the verge of a personal attack towards me and you seem hell bent to voice your disdain and frustrations over my signature as well as my "linguistic shortcomings" (of which seem nothing more than you grabbing at straws to boost your complaints). Complain to the moderators then and they can decide if my sig line is inappropriate and needs edited. You are entitled to your opinion, and I'll respect that even though I disagree with some of it. Topics such as this can quickly escalate into a heated argument and that's not what we want in a forum where we are primarily here to assist and share electronics technology. By some views, we may have kicked others in their ass, but without knowing the real details surrounding the issues, it may appear that way falsely. US foreign aid to other nations is massive and dwarfs what many other nations offer. In return, our gov. requests something from those nations be it business trade, land for a military base, etc. Deals are cut through diplomacy and often we citizens never learn of the buried details.... but that's how it works.... right or wrong. And the bottom line is we have kicked ass plenty, when necessary. The US is the world's only superpower. How long that can last has yet to be determined. But, no other nation on this planet has risen to such status and influenced the world in such a short amount of time - no nation. Perhaps that's where the bragging rights stem from. What is perceived as American pride by some of us is perceived as boisterous arrogance or bullying by others globally and that's a whole new topic for discussion and debate. As for the "cowboy" attitude you mention, it merely suggests that if NK was to launch a nuke missle at the US, I'm sure our response wouldn't be to anchor a fleet of navy ships to form a blockade around NK. Of course myself and our gov. officials are fully aware of the ramifications of using nuclear weaponry and how it ultimately affects the globe. But then if you hit me with a big club, I'm supposed to come back at you with a pencil? NOT!

Brian,
As for the US being saviors of the world, partly true but also a tarnished image when some rogue soldiers venture beyond protocol and rape or kill innocent citizens as what recently happened in Iraq. They are being investigated, and will be punished by life imprisonment if convicted as promised by top gov. officials. Even corrupt officials can tarnish what good this nation is trying to do throughout the world.... that's why it's called politics!! We citizens are empowered to vote officials into positions that we trust them to admirably perform their duties within. When they screw up or intentionally become corrupt, it affects other nations, and it's we, Joe Citizen who also get labeled negatively as well. Other nations often view the entire basket of apples as being bad, not just one apple here and there. Personally, I have always respected Britian for being an ally as well as Australia. Exchanging some jeers between Brits and Americans on some of our little and insignificant cultural differences is one thing, but I avoid flaming wars against a people who have exchanged and assisted the US right along. As much as Blair is unliked in your country, Bush receives the same lack of fanfare, but I still respect them both for stepping up to do the job where others didn't, and admire their steadfastness. It's easy for millions of us armchair generals to sit on the sidelines and negatively comment or criticize the performance of a leader whether they are a CEO, town mayor or a President/ Prime Minister.

Finally, AllVoll said it best that we shouldn't be so quickly judged by our media. It's well known in this country that a vast majority of American media outlets are liberal biased. Too often we are hearing accounts directly from soldiers mouths of how the media is slanting the news. I look forward to the day when there is a revolution in this country to hold accountable and constrain zealous reporters and their superiors.

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BeeBop

Hi Tech,
There have been many times when I have felt we should have all stayed home during the Korean war. (I'm a Canadian, living here.) One of my relatives died here then, fighting for a freedom which the Koreans don't all seem to acknowledge.
Like I clearly pointed out - I don't have doubts about the US contribution to the wonders of the world, and the ways in which they have helped others. I just do not think your sig is appropriate for an electronics board. Perhaps I should have just asked you in a nice way to change it. Really, what does it have to do with electronics?

As for the language issues, those are right on topic for this thread, and they still stand. You pointed out someone else's mistakes, surely you can take someone pointing out yours.

I am not going to answer or talk about any of the other things, as I have promised Jay, the board owner, I will not engage in politics here. I suggest we leave it at that. I have no hard feelings toward you, I hope you harbor none either.

Regards,
Robert