Originally Posted by tcmtech

The thing is some people dont care about how much money something will make them. If I do get a system built and in the highly unlikely event it does produce large amounts of mechanical power with very little fuel used I am not going to be shooting my mouth off about it in order to make millions but rather quietly using it to better my own life with as little attention drawn to me as possible.

First realistic theory is that if it does work I am building a system of co- generation gen sets and then be selling power back to the utilities with it if the operating cost outlay is even only slightly less than the sale of electricity is worth.
Second is that I would be setting up a number of over the road trucks to do goods transport trucking. Cutting the cost of fuel out of trucking would give me a substantial advantage over any other trucking business.

As far as the over unity claims one very simple fact always seem to get overlooked. The fact we are surrounded by incredible amounts of naturally occurring forms of energy already. By tapping into them that does not disobey any laws of science.

Here is an example of not so over unity but still could count if all forms of energy are not taken into account.
If you took a your vehicles alternator and left out the mechanical input aspect of it what you would see is a device that takes a small electrical current and turns it into a large one. Its over unity in the electrical sense provided you dont account for the other 'mechanical input' part of the equation.

That's how much of the over unity claims can in fact be dismissed and still work within the laws of science. The extra energy is coming from a less known or simply overlooked commonly occurring source.

Just a theory.

Without repeating everything you said here, this is all exactly correct. In nature, energy IS free. And what if one uses solar panels to power batteries that run an HHO system or other similar technologies. Once the expense for the equipment is covered, the energy is technically FREE.

And keeping things on the down low is also they way I think. If something does eventually become of this, I will employ its use as you described and more. I've been thinking of applications for a long time now and they are MANY.

As for perpetual motion, what is the secret of the electron's that circle every atom?

As an aside here, my apologies to blueroom... whatever, I just realized who you are Mr. President. And I now understand your position and your tenacity as well as conviction to it. My ex-wife is your executive secretary at the N.A.P.S (North American Pessimist Society).

Have a good day...

OK, so what's the problem you are having with the constant current PWM source? Are you using current sensing and a closed loop system to control the PWM so it always passes the correct current?

Can you please post a schematic .gif etc of the circuit you are using now?

Originally Posted by tcmtech

Very true.
But have you ever tapped on a deep cycle battery after it has been charging for while?
The mechanical shock will knock loose the built up hydrogen bubbles between the plates and for a short time there is an measurable increase in charging current.
What happens is the bubbles will build up and cut down on the conductive area of the plate surfaces. When tapped on the physical jolt will get many of those bubbles to break free from the plate surfaces and thusly opens up a larger surface ares for the acid to interact with which relates to the increase in current flow until the bubbles are reformed again.

Solid provable and proven science.

I am aware of the resonance issue in the HHO cell's & you are correct about how no 2 same designed cell's will be exactly alike. I 1st tried to think of a way to monitor and read a cell's "resonating" freq. some how, and use that to control the frequency the circuit provides. For me anyway, that seems very complicated and over my head.

Then it occurred to me that there is a way to get the bubbles off the plates and way easier. The HH & the O are opposite polarities, and when the cell is powered, one set of plates is positive charged, the other set obviously negative charged & the bubbles stick to their opposite charged plates. So I built a simple timing circuit that switch's the polarity to the plates at about 100 hz.

This gives 2 advantages. First, the plates wear differently over time. One set will deteriorate faster than the other set. By switching the polarity this way, the plates wear evenly, thus extending the life of the cell. The other advantage is that when the charge is switched, the bubbles of same polarity as the plates they are on, will "JUMP" of the plates. This is a very new thing I just came up with and it was within my skill set to build it. I do not yet have the numbers to show as to how much more HHO is produced with this, but it seems like it would be very noticeable.

Then the question is what frequency will prove to be optimum. And the answer to that I think will be dependent on each cell's own characteristics. I just built another switching circuit that has a pot to allow trying different time frames so I will find out these answers real soon.

Now, did I just give away some "secret"? I doubt it. Surely someone else out there has come to a similar conclusion. But again, I am doing this for myself. If a business can be founded on it, all the better. And the circuitry is pretty much public domain, at least what I have been using. So this is my chance to give a little something back to the efforts of HHO, which has been a blessing to me as far as I am concerned.

I did get into researching the PWM IC's as you suggested. And it was a very long night. There are ton's of these things out there and I have a few picked out I intend to play with. When I get something together, I will run it past you for your opinion (and most likely, your guidance).

Have a great day...

Originally Posted by Mr RB

OK, so what's the problem you are having with the constant current PWM source? Are you using current sensing and a closed loop system to control the PWM so it always passes the correct current?

Can you please post a schematic .gif etc of the circuit you are using now?

Now that I have found how to do so, here it is...

Originally Posted by Mr RB

Can you please post a schematic .gif etc of the circuit you are using now?

I forgot to mention that I had a problem with this circuit when using high currents, like 60 to 100 amps. Several gentlemen have let me know why, most likely, the C5 cap was overheating and blowing up. New, higher rated caps on the way now, so looking forward to these fixing said problem. That diode has recently been a problem for another guy I exchange info with (rookie also) and I simply recommended getting one with higher rating (which I will also use on any of these I build from now on).

If there is anything you can see that would improve this circuit, I would be grateful to have your opinion.

And those controls are what I need to have on a new design of this circuit using an IC such as LM3525. tcmtech got me started on this idea, which I will play with and see what I can come up with. Again, if you have any suggestions about this idea of using a PWM IC, then by all means, educate me...

Originally Posted by tcmtech

You could also just set up a way to sweep through the aproximate freqency range of the cell. Going slow will alow the right resonance point to to do it thing.

So what type of material are you useing for the electrodes and what type of electrolyte are you using?

I have worked with basic home built electrolysis cells for other aplications and have had good results with 300 and 400 series stainless steels for the elctrodes and just using saturated soduim hydroxide and water as the electrolyte.

One type of Red Devel drain cleaner is 100% sodium hydroxide in crystaline form.

The plates (electrodes) are mainly 316L stainless. There are a variety of opinions about which stainless is better, and the impact of said plates gauge. Some have even tried nickel plated "whatever" it was and claims to have good results. Some have tried silver plates, and one I know who has more money than sense, says he is making one with gold plated "whatever" it was for the plates.

I have tons of data on the various types of stainless and how they react with different chemicals. Sooooo much to sort thru, its a task for some metallurgist down the road to determine as far as I am concerned. For now, I use 316L 22 gauge plates.

One source conditions the plates before he ships them out. That process supposedly removes most of the surface lead on the stainless that causes the water to turn brown so quickly.

There are many opinions on this subject, I just go with what I know I have used successfully, except when I am in the mood to experiment.

Electrolyte is another subject. I used lye (Red Devil is getting harder to find in the stores - its used to make dope) in the 1st cells, then went to KOH (pot ash) for a while, now using potassium carbonate. I have some connections who are working on "THE" electrolyte of choice, one that you can drink in its concentrated form and not have any ill effects at all. I wonder if that's possible?

I think all things are possible, perhaps sometimes not just practical, but that's what the learning is all about. And sharing info with others tends to open ones eyes up to possibilities one never considered before. Perhaps someday soon, I will be using something very different. The pot. carbo. is not as effective as lye or pot ash, but you can use it with comfort from fearing getting the other chemicals spilled on yourself.

That circuit does not look like it was designed for 60A to 100A. The output driver for the FET gate is just using the LM324 output and won't switch the FET very fast. Adding a standard push-pull FET driver there would help.

The output caps are probably killing your efficiency. Why do you even need them? If you do get larger/better caps they will maintain a constant low DC voltage at the plates, so you will have a switchmode regulator where the output voltage is made by an RC filter with the voltage being reduced largely by the resistance of your wiring. So the caps won't get as hot as they do now, but the wiring will get hotter.

If you remove the output caps altogether and run the PWM 12v DC direct to the plates the power losses on the wiring resistance will be greatly reduced and you will get better overall efficiency, ie better power transfer into the cell.

The goal with the controller side is;
1. to get the max power into the cell, not lost elsewhere
2. to test different frequencies to get a mechanical resonance (plate vibration) to clear bubble fouling (so the more "pulsing" the DC to the cell the better)
3. To have good test gear connected to measure input power (volts amps) and losses (cell heating) etc so you can actually measure efficiency and improve it

I watched a show on discovery channel a few weeks back, a professor in the USA has an entire house hooked up to hydrogen converting his solar and wind excess into H with a electrolysis cell of his own design, storing the low pressure H in large tanks near the house and using fuel cells to convert some of it back to electricity in low power times. They were really sketchy on his electolysis cell though, only showed a glimpse of it with no discussion of any improvements he's made to it etc.

OK guys I have gone right thru this thread and deleted near everything that was swaying this topic. As shown some members are really trying to help the OP out so rather than delete the whole thread it will keep going and kept on topic.

If some members want to flout this forum go ahead and try me as the next time I see any anti HHO claims, etc which only spoil the forum image, WILL RESULT in an infraction.

I am doing my best to improve this part of the forum and the time has come to keep the topics in the Alternate and Renewable forums on topic and if some members want keep going there is the chitchat forum to go do it in.


It really is a shame for me to have say the above measures as 99% or more of the members of this forum are Adults.

Regards Bryan

Originally Posted by mneary

I get the sense that the conspiracies are the OP's primary interest anyway.

Hydrogen is a legitimate way to store and transport energy, and it's true that we could be doing more research on it. However, using Hydrogen or "HHO" in the field as a way of fooling an emission control system without regard to pollution impact is questionable at best.

I would buy into the Government Conspiracy that they are manipulating the cars we drive, to their own goals.
I have observed major improvements in air quality in just the past 30 years. I don't want to give any of that back.

I don't know how I missed this one but I would like to reply.

When an HHO system is placed on our modern vehicles, it MUST be properly "calibrated" for said use. And I refer more to modifying the ECU than the HHO system. When the ECU sensors are properly enhanced to allow for the cleaner & faster burning of the gasoline, the resulting emissions are dramatically reduced. If one does not do these enhancements, then the ECU will go into closed loop operation and simply DUMP gasoline into the intake in copious amounts, resulting in wasted fuel and seriously bad emissions, amongst other things.

So the bottom line here is that the emissions are even better than the 30 years of improvements the industry has made in this area.

And using HHO in conjunction with other adaptations to a cars fuel systems, one can get even greater improvements. I have a friend who drove down to visit us the other day. He has one of those large Ford pick ups and he has added HHO and a few other things. The amazing thing of his system is that after driving 90 minutes to get here, he reached under the back end of the truck and grabbed hold of the exhaust pipe, with no burning of his hand. I was exceptionally skeptical when he claimed this was the case but I was not about to touch that thing, at 1st anyway. When he did it with no problems, I then grabbed hold of the exhaust pipe myself and it was quite warm, but I could hold on to it all day and not get any burns from it. I got out the temperature meter and we found it was at 120 F.

Remarkable, to say the least. His other enhancements include a fuel additive, a magnetic device that clamps over the fuel line, extensive grounding of every part of the truck to every other part of the truck, and 2 others things I don't recall at the moment. He says he has a few more things to do to get the results he is after, and then he will give this information to the world. Apparently, most of these things are readily available "off the shelf" for anyone to buy. He is just using as many of them as he can find to improve his results. I won't cite his mileage claims here, because they seem like way to much to be possible, but I will monitor his claims closely because if he does have such a system going, I WANT IT TOO. OH yea, one of the other items is a performance "chip" he got from a company that makes performance enhancement chips for use with any car whose owner wants to improve performance.

People what all this proof. I have no problem with that. But when they are shown the proof, many will not accept it. All I can tell them is if they want to know the reality of any such technologies, they need to do the honest, deep digging research to find the truth. Those who throw out their rejections out of hand are just missing out.

I have been receiving so much help from the people here (the ones who are not grinding ax's) that I feel like I have finally found a place where I can get help with my electronics efforts. And I have. Thanks to you guys, you know who you are..