Without repeating everything you said here, this is all exactly correct. In nature, energy IS free. And what if one uses solar panels to power batteries that run an HHO system or other similar technologies. Once the expense for the equipment is covered, the energy is technically FREE.

And keeping things on the down low is also they way I think. If something does eventually become of this, I will employ its use as you described and more. I've been thinking of applications for a long time now and they are MANY.

As for perpetual motion, what is the secret of the electron's that circle every atom?

As an aside here, my apologies to blueroom... whatever, I just realized who you are Mr. President. And I now understand your position and your tenacity as well as conviction to it. My ex-wife is your executive secretary at the N.A.P.S (North American Pessimist Society).

Have a good day...

 

Very true.
But have you ever tapped on a deep cycle battery after it has been charging for while?
The mechanical shock will knock loose the built up hydrogen bubbles between the plates and for a short time there is an measurable increase in charging current.
What happens is the bubbles will build up and cut down on the conductive area of the plate surfaces. When tapped on the physical jolt will get many of those bubbles to break free from the plate surfaces and thusly opens up a larger surface ares for the acid to interact with which relates to the increase in current flow until the bubbles are reformed again.

By properly pulsing the current going through a battery it is possible to make a slight physical resonance in the structure of the battery that will also shake the bubbles free. However that resonance frequency is going to be different for every battery and will also change as the battery ages due to the physical and electrochemical changes that occur over time.

That electrically shaking of the electrolysis cells works the same way. And just as two different battery designs are not the same two electrolysis cells are not the same and thusly will have different physical resonance frequency's.
By hitting the physical resonance point the electrodes will tend to shake off the bubbles of gas they are forming faster and will allow more current flow. More gas is formed but more power is required to do it as well. It just speeds up the process.

Solid provable and proven science.

__________________
"Issue a general safety warning. Then look the other way and allow stupidity the chance to eliminate itself." -- tcmtech
"Those who can, Will. Those who can't, will achieve positions of power over those who can and then promptly stop them." -- tcmtech
"Your impossibility may just be my day to day routine." -- tcmtech

 

In a FLA battery, doesn't the hydrogen accumulate primarily at plate locations where the plate can't store any additional energy? Classical cell (battery) design is normally robust, because plate movement tends to cause shorts.

For "electronic shaking" to work, the electrolysis cells to be physically resonant to a degree that would be intolerable in a battery.

__________________
de KI6RWX

 

OK, so what's the problem you are having with the constant current PWM source? Are you using current sensing and a closed loop system to control the PWM so it always passes the correct current?

Can you please post a schematic .gif etc of the circuit you are using now?

 

I am aware of the resonance issue in the HHO cell's & you are correct about how no 2 same designed cell's will be exactly alike. I 1st tried to think of a way to monitor and read a cell's "resonating" freq. some how, and use that to control the frequency the circuit provides. For me anyway, that seems very complicated and over my head.

Then it occurred to me that there is a way to get the bubbles off the plates and way easier. The HH & the O are opposite polarities, and when the cell is powered, one set of plates is positive charged, the other set obviously negative charged & the bubbles stick to their opposite charged plates. So I built a simple timing circuit that switch's the polarity to the plates at about 100 hz.

This gives 2 advantages. First, the plates wear differently over time. One set will deteriorate faster than the other set. By switching the polarity this way, the plates wear evenly, thus extending the life of the cell. The other advantage is that when the charge is switched, the bubbles of same polarity as the plates they are on, will "JUMP" of the plates. This is a very new thing I just came up with and it was within my skill set to build it. I do not yet have the numbers to show as to how much more HHO is produced with this, but it seems like it would be very noticeable.

Then the question is what frequency will prove to be optimum. And the answer to that I think will be dependent on each cell's own characteristics. I just built another switching circuit that has a pot to allow trying different time frames so I will find out these answers real soon.

Now, did I just give away some "secret"? I doubt it. Surely someone else out there has come to a similar conclusion. But again, I am doing this for myself. If a business can be founded on it, all the better. And the circuitry is pretty much public domain, at least what I have been using. So this is my chance to give a little something back to the efforts of HHO, which has been a blessing to me as far as I am concerned.

I did get into researching the PWM IC's as you suggested. And it was a very long night. There are ton's of these things out there and I have a few picked out I intend to play with. When I get something together, I will run it past you for your opinion (and most likely, your guidance).

Have a great day...

 

You could also just set up a way to sweep through the aproximate freqency range of the cell. Going slow will alow the right resonance point to to do it thing.

So what type of material are you useing for the electrodes and what type of electrolyte are you using?

I have worked with basic home built electrolysis cells for other aplications and have had good results with 300 and 400 series stainless steels for the elctrodes and just using saturated soduim hydroxide and water as the electrolyte.

One type of Red Devel drain cleaner is 100% sodium hydroxide in crystaline form.

__________________
"Issue a general safety warning. Then look the other way and allow stupidity the chance to eliminate itself." -- tcmtech
"Those who can, Will. Those who can't, will achieve positions of power over those who can and then promptly stop them." -- tcmtech
"Your impossibility may just be my day to day routine." -- tcmtech

 

Now that I have found how to do so, here it is...

Attached Thumbnails

 

 

I forgot to mention that I had a problem with this circuit when using high currents, like 60 to 100 amps. Several gentlemen have let me know why, most likely, the C5 cap was overheating and blowing up. New, higher rated caps on the way now, so looking forward to these fixing said problem. That diode has recently been a problem for another guy I exchange info with (rookie also) and I simply recommended getting one with higher rating (which I will also use on any of these I build from now on).

If there is anything you can see that would improve this circuit, I would be grateful to have your opinion.

And those controls are what I need to have on a new design of this circuit using an IC such as LM3525. tcmtech got me started on this idea, which I will play with and see what I can come up with. Again, if you have any suggestions about this idea of using a PWM IC, then by all means, educate me...

 

The plates (electrodes) are mainly 316L stainless. There are a variety of opinions about which stainless is better, and the impact of said plates gauge. Some have even tried nickel plated "whatever" it was and claims to have good results. Some have tried silver plates, and one I know who has more money than sense, says he is making one with gold plated "whatever" it was for the plates.

I have tons of data on the various types of stainless and how they react with different chemicals. Sooooo much to sort thru, its a task for some metallurgist down the road to determine as far as I am concerned. For now, I use 316L 22 gauge plates.

One source conditions the plates before he ships them out. That process supposedly removes most of the surface lead on the stainless that causes the water to turn brown so quickly.

There are many opinions on this subject, I just go with what I know I have used successfully, except when I am in the mood to experiment.

Electrolyte is another subject. I used lye (Red Devil is getting harder to find in the stores - its used to make dope) in the 1st cells, then went to KOH (pot ash) for a while, now using potassium carbonate. I have some connections who are working on "THE" electrolyte of choice, one that you can drink in its concentrated form and not have any ill effects at all. I wonder if that's possible?

I think all things are possible, perhaps sometimes not just practical, but that's what the learning is all about. And sharing info with others tends to open ones eyes up to possibilities one never considered before. Perhaps someday soon, I will be using something very different. The pot. carbo. is not as effective as lye or pot ash, but you can use it with comfort from fearing getting the other chemicals spilled on yourself.

 

That circuit does not look like it was designed for 60A to 100A. The output driver for the FET gate is just using the LM324 output and won't switch the FET very fast. Adding a standard push-pull FET driver there would help.

The output caps are probably killing your efficiency. Why do you even need them? If you do get larger/better caps they will maintain a constant low DC voltage at the plates, so you will have a switchmode regulator where the output voltage is made by an RC filter with the voltage being reduced largely by the resistance of your wiring. So the caps won't get as hot as they do now, but the wiring will get hotter.

If you remove the output caps altogether and run the PWM 12v DC direct to the plates the power losses on the wiring resistance will be greatly reduced and you will get better overall efficiency, ie better power transfer into the cell.

The goal with the controller side is;
1. to get the max power into the cell, not lost elsewhere
2. to test different frequencies to get a mechanical resonance (plate vibration) to clear bubble fouling (so the more "pulsing" the DC to the cell the better)
3. To have good test gear connected to measure input power (volts amps) and losses (cell heating) etc so you can actually measure efficiency and improve it

I watched a show on discovery channel a few weeks back, a professor in the USA has an entire house hooked up to hydrogen converting his solar and wind excess into H with a electrolysis cell of his own design, storing the low pressure H in large tanks near the house and using fuel cells to convert some of it back to electricity in low power times. They were really sketchy on his electolysis cell though, only showed a glimpse of it with no discussion of any improvements he's made to it etc.

 

OK guys I have gone right thru this thread and deleted near everything that was swaying this topic. As shown some members are really trying to help the OP out so rather than delete the whole thread it will keep going and kept on topic.

If some members want to flout this forum go ahead and try me as the next time I see any anti HHO claims, etc which only spoil the forum image, WILL RESULT in an infraction.

I am doing my best to improve this part of the forum and the time has come to keep the topics in the Alternate and Renewable forums on topic and if some members want keep going there is the chitchat forum to go do it in.


It really is a shame for me to have say the above measures as 99% or more of the members of this forum are Adults.

Regards Bryan

 

Mr RB Like i said before his circuit don't look like it was made for high amps

And I think your right And like I said we need to look at the cel how it is made.
There a lot of things that could be done with the cel but one would need to take great care not to make something that could hurt them.

I've seen where you can split the hydrogen and oxygen in to there own cel
which would make fuel grade hydrogen and pure oxygen not to be played with.

__________________
Burt
http://mybe80be.com
http://stores.shop.ebay.com/mybe80be__W0QQ_armrsZ1

 

Now you see... this is excellent sir. Your ?'s provide answers I had no idea I was searching for.

I will try to find a standard push-pull FET driver to use as you point out. When I get answers like these, I do like the challenge of figuring out what your talking about, and I will ask you later on if what I find is in fact what you are talking about.

OK then. For the 60 + amps, I have added a 2nd mosfet in parallel with the original one. I figured it would spread the work over 2 of them and help performance.

I use the caps because that is what the designer put in the circuit. But now that I think of it, the earliest build of this circuit I did was without the cap. And if I recall correctly, it worked just fine, at least at low currents. If the cap is not necessary, I will get rid of it. And this will help save considerable space as well as few $'s.

Originally, there was a problem with the 10 ohm resistor burning up. I thought he added the cap to help with this. He explained it as the power wires to the PWM need to be short length because putting the
PWM too far from the battery caused an induction into the wiring that burned up that resistor. Originally, I put in a 2 watt 10 ohm resistor to deal with this problem & it seem's to help, but it does still get quite hot. Now that I have access to your knowledge , I know there is a way to resolve this resistors problem better than putting in a bigger resistor, I just don't know what that answer is.

See, ZFF tells us rookies things we do not understand. He talks above our heads like he was talking to one of his peer's, which very few of us are. And trying to get him to explain things in laymen terms is worse than pulling teeth from a lion. Its frustrating at times. But now that I have found you all, my frustration is taking a back seat as I learn from your teaching's. Bless you guys & I can not say thank you enough...

And yes, the goal with the controller side is; as you pointed out. Fortunately I do have some good test equipment. 2 o-scopes, and a variety of different meter's covering just about everything I need to examine. Sometimes, I am not sure just what some readings are telling me, but at least I can get the readings and watch the signals on the scopes.

Watching those shows about some people and their energy systems is impressive (to me anyway) and I agree, they leave you hanging for the details too often. When I catch such a show, I try to take the time to make notes so I can look into the given subject further using the web resources. And that can get frustrating some times as well because when I find answers, I do not necessarily understand them completely. I'm not a moron, just not exposed to much of these fields with any formal education. But knowing where to go for answers is valuable, and this forum has proven that.

So the bottom line is I should dump the large cap all together.

Does 2 mosfets really do any good, or can I just use a single one with much higher rating's?

And does the 2 watt 10 ohm resistor need changing (component or circuit wise) to address the problem of "induction"?

I am appreciating this forum more and more each day. Its wonderful having access to knowledge and experience of others to help me along. By the time I get the next one of these designed (with all your inputs & recommendations as the guide), I just may wind up with a circuit that does the job very well and others can gain this information for their own circuits. I look forward to this very much as this has been a problem for too long and I was lost on fixing the issues.

So to you guru's that are helping me, I salute you

 

I buy industrial IGBT blocks on eBay all the time. They have good used take offs in about every size and configuration you could ask for. Plus a 600 amp 1200 volt unit takes a hell of a lot of abuse before giving up!

The last time I purchased that size I got 5 Infinion (FZ600R12KE3) 600 amp 1200 volt IGBT units for $125 including shipping. Brand new too!

Being voltage controlled they are easy to set up with a basic FET/IGBT driver IC like the IR2110 or one of its many cousins.

__________________
"Issue a general safety warning. Then look the other way and allow stupidity the chance to eliminate itself." -- tcmtech
"Those who can, Will. Those who can't, will achieve positions of power over those who can and then promptly stop them." -- tcmtech
"Your impossibility may just be my day to day routine." -- tcmtech

 

I don't know how I missed this one but I would like to reply.

When an HHO system is placed on our modern vehicles, it MUST be properly "calibrated" for said use. And I refer more to modifying the ECU than the HHO system. When the ECU sensors are properly enhanced to allow for the cleaner & faster burning of the gasoline, the resulting emissions are dramatically reduced. If one does not do these enhancements, then the ECU will go into closed loop operation and simply DUMP gasoline into the intake in copious amounts, resulting in wasted fuel and seriously bad emissions, amongst other things.

So the bottom line here is that the emissions are even better than the 30 years of improvements the industry has made in this area.

And using HHO in conjunction with other adaptations to a cars fuel systems, one can get even greater improvements. I have a friend who drove down to visit us the other day. He has one of those large Ford pick ups and he has added HHO and a few other things. The amazing thing of his system is that after driving 90 minutes to get here, he reached under the back end of the truck and grabbed hold of the exhaust pipe, with no burning of his hand. I was exceptionally skeptical when he claimed this was the case but I was not about to touch that thing, at 1st anyway. When he did it with no problems, I then grabbed hold of the exhaust pipe myself and it was quite warm, but I could hold on to it all day and not get any burns from it. I got out the temperature meter and we found it was at 120 F.

Remarkable, to say the least. His other enhancements include a fuel additive, a magnetic device that clamps over the fuel line, extensive grounding of every part of the truck to every other part of the truck, and 2 others things I don't recall at the moment. He says he has a few more things to do to get the results he is after, and then he will give this information to the world. Apparently, most of these things are readily available "off the shelf" for anyone to buy. He is just using as many of them as he can find to improve his results. I won't cite his mileage claims here, because they seem like way to much to be possible, but I will monitor his claims closely because if he does have such a system going, I WANT IT TOO. OH yea, one of the other items is a performance "chip" he got from a company that makes performance enhancement chips for use with any car whose owner wants to improve performance.

People what all this proof. I have no problem with that. But when they are shown the proof, many will not accept it. All I can tell them is if they want to know the reality of any such technologies, they need to do the honest, deep digging research to find the truth. Those who throw out their rejections out of hand are just missing out.

I have been receiving so much help from the people here (the ones who are not grinding ax's) that I feel like I have finally found a place where I can get help with my electronics efforts. And I have. Thanks to you guys, you know who you are..