+ Reply to Thread
Page 11 of 17
First ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ... Last
Results 151 to 165 of 246

Thread: Grid Tie Inverter Schematic

  1. #151
    Val Gretchev Newbie
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Whitby, ON, Canada
    Posts
    29

    Default To: rx5

    Here is a brief explanation on Wikipedia.....Grid tie inverter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Just Google grid-tie for many more.


  2. #152
    Val Gretchev Newbie
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Whitby, ON, Canada
    Posts
    29

    Default To: Mr RB

    Way to go Roman! Nice theoretical design! Question is... why would you want to build such a small inverter, grid-tied or otherwise? The design I am proposing is bare bones minimum at 1500 watts. It can be scaled up with changes only to the inductors, filter components, and the output transformer. Obviously, the motivating factor here is to sell some power to the utility company during sunshine hours and buy it back at other times. Here in Ontario there is a proposal to pay home produced PV power almost twice per kWh as it costs to buy a kWh. So you would get 2 kWh for each one you sold. By this time next year, all homes will be outfitted with net power metering anyway when we will be billed different amounts depending on what time of day it is. The most expensive time will be during the day when the most sunshine is available. So, by offsetting some of that expense with a solar array will achieve a faster pay back for the installation.

    I enjoyed reading your mini-autobiography on your web site.

  3. #153
    Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Out there
    Posts
    1,761

    Default

    Hi Val, thanks re the design. As for the why? Well these days I make my living doing commercial designs so any chance to take a diversion into a hobby "minimalist" design is the fun part of electronics for me.

    I suppose the main "why" would be that the solar movement really needs more people entering at the bottom end. The promotion of solar education and even solar enthusiasm. Why do so many people buy 20w solar panels and use it to power something at home, even if just their lawn lights etc? It's like they are dipping their toe in the water.

    Obviously the MICRO grid tie is very much at the amusement end of the solar movement, nobody would think their 20w solar panel is making any significant difference to their power bill... But its as FUN as any other micro solar home project and probably as credible, safety issues not withstanding.

    There is just something cool about being able to connect your little 10w, 20w (up to 80w?) panel using a minimum amount of parts and have it take power directly off your home energy bill with a fairly high amount of efficiency. If you look out and see sun, it's like "Hehe that's putting power into my mains!" It sure beats filling up a battery and then thinking "Now what can I do with 12 volts?"

    I didn't realise you were doing a commercial design (or is it a highly sophisticated home/hobby project?) but given 1500+W and the possibility of going commercial then yes it's critical to cover all possible safety issues.

    Re my little autobiography, thanks! I really need to add the last 18 years in there but it would take so long to type in... Maybe i'll do a 20 year update.

  4. #154
    rx5
    rx5 is offline
    rx5 Newbie
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Leyte, Philippines
    Posts
    16

    Default

    ok Val got it...

    my next question:

    do all(or most) GTI use metal core for the step-up part?

  5. #155
    Val Gretchev Newbie
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Whitby, ON, Canada
    Posts
    29

    Default To: rx5

    If you are referring to the inductor of the booster circuit, then the core would be ferrite or powdered iron since the frequency is around 30 kHz. If you are talking about the isolation transformer, then that would be laminated iron core since it has to pass only the 60Hz (or 50Hz). The high frequency from the PWM is suppressed by the pi filter.

  6. #156
    tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sawyer, North Dakota, USA
    Posts
    3,277
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    I Get a giggle every time someone says something has to be complex just to make it simple. I Laugh every time!
    I make simple to be simple. Because I am simple. How simple is that?

    As I have pointed out in several past posts there are countless ways to make one of these and as a simple man I came to the conclusion for my designs that the simple iron core low frequency method was the simplest, easiest, and cheapest way to feed the power back to the grid. And with the right Pi circuit it does give a clean sine wave that follows the grid wave form very cleanly and effectively.

    I have never needed to monitor anything more than the instantaneous voltage of the line side wave form in order to get good clean returning power. All other line monitoring is just for safety, to make sure the line power is at the right voltage and frequency.

    If the output amps get too high thats what fuses and circuit breakers are for. Same with the input side. If the input power exceeds the GTI capacity for too long the thermal protection limits shut it down and redirect the incoming power to a load dump circuit.
    If the line voltage or frequency get to far off it again diverts the incoming power to the load dump device and then waits until the line side power returns to normal.

    As far as using the HF switching to isolate the input from the output I see some gains and some losses. It does give a better and slightly more efficient use of the low end input power but is more complex and honestly does not have any overall great operating efficiency gains over a simple transformer. HF switching is much lighter physically but when you factor in the actual physical volume its actually bigger per watt than a standard transformer of the same capacity so nothing was gained size wise.

    The LF iron core transformers are going to make the GTI heavier. But I figure, so what! The wind generators, solar panels or micro hydroelectric power source and the line connection are all stationary so what purpose does it serve or what gain do you get if the GTI is more portable? It cant actually go any place while its doing its job!
    A lighter unit will save a customer a few dollars on shipping cost but a simpler and less complex unit is cheaper to build. And that savings will off set any added shipping costs.

    From my personal experiences the standard voltage controlled switching device H-Bridge cant be beat! Its simple, easy to control, and protect.
    It eliminates a need for multiple H-bridges or switching circuits to be used.
    With the right control circuit design its capable of both current limiting and voltage limiting and PWM wave form shaping at 10's of KHz drive frequencies.

    All other functions are done in the control side of the system. And once the control circuit is built and can do all of the input and output monitoring then its just a matter of changing voltage and current sensing
    components in order to adapt it from a multi watt to a multi kilowatt control and monitoring capacity.

    Just my opinion, but I do like the conceptual ideas and I am open to the possibilities that there could be other ways too.

    I just think simple is simple and complex never makes anything actually simpler.
    "When in doubt, LIGHT IT ON FIRE AND SEE WHAT COLOR OF SMOKE IT CAN MAKE!" -- tcmtech

  7. #157
    Alan Dedier Newbie
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Posts
    2

    Default Grid Tie Interface

    New to this my e-mail habits are obsidian age. I saw Val Gretchev work on inverters don't know if I can open .mcp. Chinese make cheap good inverters but the grid-tie Interface is the thing. A 20 year+ reliable seperate unit that can pass UL1741 would make easier getting grid tied solar systems signed off for the rebates without the really excessive grid-tied inverter costs. If the inverter only go 7 years still well worth it. I'm waiting for my NABCEP certificate for Solar Installer. I have access Protel layout, parts purchasing, through-hole dip solder and lead cutting machine.

  8. #158
    rx5
    rx5 is offline
    rx5 Newbie
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Leyte, Philippines
    Posts
    16

    Default

    @tcm,

    good point! and nice explaination

    dont worry I dont need ANY arguement right now.. LoL ;D

    just wanted to make a portable and effecient inverter..to power those low wattage irons or something less than 200Watts.. youl never know WHEN youll need em..

    in MY area, there is no need for GTI, dont have wind gen or PV panels to get alternate energy, all rely on grid power... sucks eh?

  9. #159
    Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Out there
    Posts
    1,761

    Default

    Rx5, those new soda-can sized inverters seem to be everywhere now, they are about $30 USD, have output 150W and fit in your soft drink holder in your car console. It seems everyone wants to plug their laptop into a car these days.

    TCMTECH, I do like your simple micro grid tie inverter, I said so in your thread. But efficiency bothers me. If it uses a iron 50Hz transformer then you need to disconnect it for the other 18-20 hours of the day when the solar panel is not working. That adds a lot more complexity, like a relay to connect it, ie more parts and more power wastage. And when operating, the efficiency of iron transofrmer square wave inverter is not gonna be much over 60-65%.

  10. #160
    rx5
    rx5 is offline
    rx5 Newbie
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Leyte, Philippines
    Posts
    16

    Default

    Mr RB,

    yes those small switching inverters are becoming VERY common nowadays... maybe I could buy one for myself

    but I still need to finish my DIY..

  11. #161
    tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sawyer, North Dakota, USA
    Posts
    3,277
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    But efficiency bothers me. If it uses a iron 50Hz transformer then you need to disconnect it for the other 18-20 hours of the day when the solar panel is not working. That adds a lot more complexity, like a relay to connect it, ie more parts and more power wastage. And when operating, the efficiency of iron transofrmer square wave inverter is not gonna be much over 60-65%.
    The actual control circuits can run a simple SSR or a mechanical relay to do the actual connecting and disconnecting as the input power goes up and down.
    Its standard in every one of my systems.
    I even included it in the 'Tiny GTI, maybe' thread. By unhooking the main power transformer every time the input power drops below the minimum feed back power point for more than a few seconds it automatically disconnects from the line.
    So all that is powered from the line is the control circuit at that point and that has a power drain of less than 2 watts including the control transformer if one is used in the control circuit at all. For comparison my LED digital alarm clock has a input power rating of 10 watts.

    I have posted several very basic voltage sensing circuits that are specifically designed just to handle that line connection function. Each one costs only a few dollars to make and can either run a mechanical relay or a SSR. I prefer SSR's because there can be a lot of actual cycling during a typical day.

    As far as the actual operating efficiency the standard iron core 50- 60 cycle conversion is actually surprisingly efficient. I have done many different home made versions of the IGBT type H - bridges and I use the standard IR2110 IC's designed just for direct control of Mosfet or IGBT half bridge switching devices. They have the correct control functions built right in and automatically drive the gates at full saturation voltage with incredibly fast rise and fall times. Plus they use a standard logic level compatible input signal.
    That IC gives a real life application the highest possible switching device efficiency they can run at so very little input energy is wasted by the actual switching itself. Its the same efficiency a HF type switcher will have but only running a much lower frequency.
    That leaves the iron core transformer as the big efficiency loss device. But typical transformers operating efficiency is still 85 - 90 % over its full operating range. The smaller transformers do have some what less actual efficiency when compared to bigger transformers though. However again by using a small toroid core transformer that efficiency can be raised back up.
    Anyone can check with any transformer manufacture and get information on the actual efficiencies of their transformers and then know exactly how efficient they are. The numbers are alway higher than everyone seems to think that a LF transformer is. I wish I knew why its such a common myth that LF transformers are inefficient. They are one of the most efficient voltage or current converting devices ever created.

    On my actual designs I have measured and confirmed actual conversions efficiencies of around 85% at peak power levels.
    The as calculated losses from the switching devices is less than 5% of the total input energy at its least efficient point. The other 10% loss is the transformer.
    Not to bad for home made!
    Anyone using a Mosfet or IGBT based H - Bridge that is driven off of IC's designed specifically for voltage controlled switching devices will likely be able to confirm this. It standard commercial inverter drive circuitry. I have even found some of the cheap 12 VDC to 120 VAC portable inverters use these IC's or other cousins of them for driving the output H - bridges that work on 170 volt DC to create the Ac output itself.
    Most home made HF switching power supplies will not be any higher in efficiency either. Getting over that 85% hump requires more expensive parts and more complex control.
    Its not that I am against HF based designs. I just have not seen any real life commercially made switching power supplies that had efficiencies much over 85% except for the HF fluorescent light ballasts used for the large 4 - 8 ft tube lights. They are commonly rated at 90 - 96 % peak efficiency.

    I am glad a few people are now taking the home made GTI concept far more seriously! The more people doing it the better!
    "When in doubt, LIGHT IT ON FIRE AND SEE WHAT COLOR OF SMOKE IT CAN MAKE!" -- tcmtech

  12. #162
    Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent Mr RB Excellent
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Out there
    Posts
    1,761

    Default

    My apologies, i'll stand corrected on that. I really didn't think you'd be getting 85% with an iron transformer and a "less than perfect sine" input (ie squarewave!)...

  13. #163
    tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent tcmtech Excellent
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Sawyer, North Dakota, USA
    Posts
    3,277
    Blog Entries
    2

    Default

    Not a problem.
    If I remember my transformer theory correctly most standard low frequency iron core transformers are actually more efficient when operating with square waves.
    I think it has to do with the wave form rising much faster and then staying at peak voltage longer. The magnetic flux stays moving at its maximum rate longer and thusly transfers more energy.

    I could be wrong but as I recall a sine wave is not the most efficient wave form for transformers to work with. HF PWM is basically all square wave and I understand that is part of why its more efficient.
    "When in doubt, LIGHT IT ON FIRE AND SEE WHAT COLOR OF SMOKE IT CAN MAKE!" -- tcmtech

  14. #164
    Sceadwian Excellent Sceadwian Excellent Sceadwian Excellent Sceadwian Excellent Sceadwian Excellent Sceadwian Excellent Sceadwian Excellent
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Rochester, NY U.S.
    Posts
    9,826
    Blog Entries
    1

    Default

    HF PWM is more efficient because it's done typically in switching supplies, where you want ON or OFF. Sine waves will cause a transistor to go through it's linear region which wastes power in the transistor as heat. Square waves help with maintaining an absolute on/off situation, with modern Mosfets being able to pass so much current and have such low on resistances the sharper the square wave you can deliver the better.

    I think you might be right on the square waves being more efficient through a transformer though, but that's just my gut feeling. My knowledge of inductance, core material types, and saturation is almost negative =) I just know they exist.
    Last edited by Sceadwian; 26th May 2009 at 04:56 PM.
    "Because I be what I be. I would tell you what you want to know if I
    could, mum, but I be a cat, and no cat anywhere ever gave anyone a
    straight answer, har har."

  15. #165
    Val Gretchev Newbie
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Whitby, ON, Canada
    Posts
    29

    Default Re: Grid-Tie Inverter PWM

    OK, here is one implementation of a sine wave PWM. I don't know of any modules that will put out a 60Hz/50Hz PWM signal so I had to make it up using a general purpose microcontroller. This particular micro has a built-in PWM circuit that can be re-loaded each period. It is double-buffered so that as soon as the PWM loads a value from its input register, it interrupts the micro. The micro can then reload the PWM input register with a new value for the next period.

    Perhaps a better implementation would be to program an FPGA to perform the PWM function. That would allow for any micro to be used.
    Attached Files

+ Reply to Thread
Page 11 of 17
First ... 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 ... Last

Similar Threads

  1. PSPICE schematic (full-bridge inverter)
    By MsStateDawg in forum Electronic Projects Design/Ideas/Reviews
    Replies: 5
    Latest: 20th July 2009, 12:20 AM
  2. Laser Security Grid
    By russianbadboylb in forum Electronic Projects Design/Ideas/Reviews
    Replies: 5
    Latest: 28th April 2008, 07:05 PM
  3. Running My Room Off-The-Grid
    By ParkingLotLust in forum Alternative Energy
    Replies: 29
    Latest: 1st July 2007, 08:37 PM
  4. LED Grid Display project
    By Peepsalot in forum Micro Controllers
    Replies: 21
    Latest: 25th March 2006, 07:12 PM
  5. Does any have a Schematic diagram for an AC/DC inverter?
    By guillermo in forum Electronic Projects Design/Ideas/Reviews
    Replies: 7
    Latest: 7th April 2005, 07:35 PM

Tags for this Thread