Bet you buy into creationism, inteligent design or similar pseudoscience.

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The idea of using brown's gas or any supplemental gas for that matter is to fool the car's computer by making the oxygen sensors read a rich condition. This would lean the mixture out and save gas. One could take this idea 1 step further and reprogram the fuel curves for a constant lean condition and supplement it with more HHO to get rid of the lean "knock". This would increase the MPG's. That's all we're talking about here. Not really thermodynamics or efficiency of systems. I am only arguing this because I fully intend to take a scientific approach when I start doing this. I've got an auto scope and can take snapshots of let's say an injector pulse width. As a first step, I'll look at that before and after addition of HHO.

 

We'll take it to the lounge, now, about that Brown's gas. I thought that article with the aluminum and soda can was pretty interesting. If you can supplement it chemically using very cheap and low amounts of chemical than it becomes more viable.

 

You can put a circuit between the O2 sensor and the computer to make the engine run leaner or richer.

I like the idea of a turbo for high compression and water injection to eliminate the knock. This goes back to airplane engines in WWII.

As best I know there are 3 ways to use water injection. The first is to get rid of knock by cooling the burn. This does not require much water. A second method injects more water and is said to scavenge/convert more heat to power. At the extreme there is the 6 cycle engine that does intake-compression-power-exhaust (inject water) - steam power cycle -exhaust. I understand people are working on this but I do not have a link.

We would need a new engine to do the last one. The second one is interesting. I think the water injection needs to be of a complexity in line with a multi-port fuel injection system. This with a turbo might be the way to go.

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Water injection will be perfect to cool down the burn. Hydrogen and oxyhydrogen burn hotter and I expect the engine to reach higher operating temps with HHO injection and gas alone. I've been looking into water injection kits. Summit has one for almost $500 that runs off of the MAF sensor. The kit was originally meant for additional horsepower and to get rid of knock, because the small amount of water/methyl alcohol effectively raises the octane and slows the burn. The methyl alcohol (windshield washer fluid) adds horsepower. All this is hypothetical. So far I've only made the electrode and housing. This weekend hopefully I'll start looking at injector waveforms. Here's a link for the water injection. http://www.snowperformance.net/products.php?p_cat=324. The website also has opinions on HHO generators...

 

I read what I could find on water injection a few months ago.
The washer fluid is to keep the water from freezing. As far as I know the extra power comes from the high compression / slow burn that the water allows you to use.

The products for water injection are overpriced. It would take quite a while to recover the cost. I suppose we may be paying for the engineering involved but these prices seem out of line. If these is not that much to it. It makes more sense for the car makers or the people who provide aftermarket turbos to include these. They already have all the info on their uC's. About all they need to add is the pump and tank.


EDIT:
The STS dual stage boost controllers have water injection control built in but it is full on/off for the water. I do not know how well this works when thinking MPG.

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Try this website, it gives you a drawing of the PWM and a lot of other info.
Dont give up or get discouraged, just keep at it.
By the way Stan Myers ran his volswagon for several years on 4 of these units.
http://waterpoweredcar.com/MeyerRep.pdf

 

Can you trust results of a test of The Hydro-4000 by a TV station?
I wonder how much they got paid to advertise the thing? And then fudge the test?

I might trust the test by the cops.

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Interesting idea. Let's look at the list of authors, shall we?

Hm. That's a lot more than two. Let's check out where they work:

Golly. Those places sure sound like hotbeds of atheism, don't they? Baptists just *love* that sort of thing.

Where do you get this 'Bilderbergs' nonsense? The study states quite clearly that funding was provided by the John Templeton Foundation, which, if you care to study up on it (I take it that you prefer to just make things up and then not post references to support your bizarre statements), comes under fire from *both* sides of the argument for funding research seen to be on the "other side".

And yes, I do buy global warming, because only a fool ignores blatant evidence. I do not necessarily buy that humans are causing it, however.

I haven't heard any better ideas than evolution. It's the only theory offered so far which fits the evidence available.

Are any of your posts going to contain any actual information or are you just going to keep making pointless, emotionally loaded statements and fail to provide any supporting references or actual arguments?


Torben

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Yeah, a little lazy to keep looking at basically the same thing over and over... Kind of lost interest back in the 'Joe Cell' days.

I didn't click the news links, as I don't believe they are 100% accurate or unbiased. They cover most any story, doesn't really matter, just as long as they can get people to watch and respond. On the Hydro4000 site, couldn't find a price tag anywhere, clicked on the map for Florida, got a pop-up with a list of names and phone numbers, mostly individuals. Not interested enough to get my phone number on some telemarketers list through caller-id, just to see what they. I guess since they are selling it over the internet, it must be true.

$1200 is kind of steep to save $14 every couple of weeks, more the 3 years to recover the price... Most of the cars I've owned cost less than $1,000. Think I'll just continue to throw away my money at the pump for a while longer, maybe the price will drop.

Their claim that for diesel engines, it will burn most of the pollutants away... kind messed with me. Doesn't burning pretty much anything produce some sort of greenhouse carbon? Always thought carbon was pretty much indestructible...

 

Latent heat of vaporization, water requires a lot of energy to convert from a liquid to a gas. Injecting it into the airstream allows it to vaporize in the combustion chamber which allows for a lower combustion peak temperature which allows for advanced timing. More advanced timing allows for the burn to effectively push the piston longer, thus more power output, or requiring less throttle input/fuel for the same power output (better MPG).

It's not theory like HHO, it's a proven fact and has been done so in many laboratories and on race cars alike, along with WWII planes.

Stan Myers is a fraud and has been proven to be one, while his claims aren't.

 

Well just to clarify what I meant by hypothetical: adding HHO to supplement the gas would raise cylinder head/engine temps. To help cool this down, I would add a fine water mist. In addition the fine water mist would raise the octane level, i.e. slow the burn, since HHO also burns very quickly.

HHO is for sure not a theory. I've made several HHO balloons, back when I first investigating electrolysis. After lighting one off and feeling the pressure wave in my chest from a balloon 12in in diameter, I was skeptical no longer.

 

Nobody is saying that HHO is not real. What we're saying is that any buildable system for creating HHO for use in an engine, when said system is also powered by that engine, will not increase the overall efficiency of the engine. It will take more energy to produce the HHO than will be recovered through the use of that HHO in the combustion process. That's all.


Torben

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Exactly, I don't see why he can't seem to accept the fact that a combustion engine won't be more thermodynamically efficient if it's burning Brown's gas rather than petrol.

You'd better off using the waste heat from the exhaust to run another heat engine like a steam engine than to mess around with electrolysis. This would actually boost the thermodynamic efficiency of the engine. I don't know how much extra power you'd get or if it's actually worth doing but it's certainly more worthwhile than Brown's gas.

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I agree. Have a 3 cylinder engine on gasoline and a resulting steam engine to absorb the heat energy from the 3 cylinder gasoline (or diesel) engine to create extra unused power. Provided the steam engine portion is not overly heavy. Use the converted exhaust from 3 cylinder engine and collect the water for use in a water injection system, allow for more timing and power. I'm sure you could make a very efficient engine and pack it into a 2000lb Honda Civic type package. I'm sure it'd get tremendous mileage.

I always see the "running on hydrogen" argument, eventually turn into "supplimenting gasoline" argument... I wonder why? Because it's easier to hide the losses of a hydrogen cell when you have gasoline as a power source. Why isn't there any engines on a dyno cell that can have a hydrogen cell tied into it and monitor the current drain and subsequent engine HP, then do the same without the hydrogen cell running? I am sure countless universities and colleges have engines on a dyno cells in the enginering dept's...now why wouldn't something as simple as connecting a +ve and -ve to the battery to power the cell and a hose into the TB be done yet?