Hydrogen - Electronic Circuits Projects Diagrams Free

Thunderchild · 15th May 2007, 08:14 PM

Well it is as simple as that Hydrogen, we already use gas so what is the issue many convert their cars to gas we use gas for heating and cooking what more do we want,

ah but you will say where do we get it ? answer is easy we make it from water through electrolysis powered by solar panels.

now you are going to say nah what about winter cloud etc. agreed europe and north america will have this problem to a varying degree. what about the african desert where else is there more sun ?

now your gonna say yes but how do we get it to europe (well I live in Europe you american chaps will have to figure it out you way your end). easy don't we already carry methane gas from africa to europe in pipes under the mediteranean ?

Frankly I can't see what all the fuss is over, hell you can even pump the blasted hydrogen down the tube WITH methane why not there's not much difference it is still hydrogen in both cases only that methane has carbon with it so if we were'nt to be able to make enough hydrogen initially we can make it up with methane.

so now you gonna say the most brainy, ah but burning hydrogen will still make heat and cause green house effect. well 1) by eliminating CO2 it will reduce green house effects immediatly as in less bad gasses, secondly a solar panel is not magically making electricity out of nothing just because light and heat beam on it.

as a french scientist long ago established valid for energy and matter: "nothing is created and nothing is destroying - all is transformed" (about the only sane thing my technology teacher taught me). so if our wonderful solar panel is 25 % efficient for every KW of rays hitting it it takes 250 W (of heat) out of that 1 KW and makes it into electricity so even if we were to burn the hydrogen the heat it releases is but the original solar energy that would have hit the earth anyway and heated it by another 250 W per square meter where there is a solar panel.

So whats the big deal ?

**Nigel Goodwin** · 15th May 2007, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

So whats the big deal ?

Was it you who was on about this before? - solar panels are inefficient, and electrolysis to produce hydrogen is VERY inefficient - it's really an EXTREMELY poor way to try and store energy, which is what you're actually trying to do!.

HarveyH42 · 15th May 2007, 09:19 PM

Solar panels in the desert? Where is the water coming from? Wouldn't the water be better used for agricultural production, famine never ends in africa...
Somebody ought to do some calculations, I played with some numbers once, but I got a hunch you would need solar panels of consideriable size to seperate and compress the hydrogen, just for an individual with modest energy needs. Could guess on start up cost, but figure it would be many years before it started paying off.

Global warming? I'm pretty sure the planet was much warmer before the Ice Age, the now. I believe the planet is recovering from whatever catastrophy that caused the cold, man has little to do with it, and not much we can do to prevent/reverse/slow it down. Some people need to control everything and everybody around them, really pisses them off when they can't...

My interest in enviroment, is that this where we live, it's not a toilet. Why live in filth when we have other choices? I'd like to see less stuff made for limited use, then later dumped in a hole. Why use so much plastic, when paper would work just fine.

Oznog · 16th May 2007, 07:25 AM

What you suggest has critical problems:
1. Making hydrogen in an industrial setting is fairly efficient regardless of the power source, however, burning hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is no more efficient- probably less- than burning a comparable amount of gasoline energy. Right now if you used grid electricity, which is mostly coal/nat gas fueled, it would result in more emissions than running the cars on gasoline. Sure if we had free, unlimited solar power that would be nice. First thing I'd do is replace all the coal-fired plants.

2. Unfortunately, hydrogen is extremely difficult to store in large volumes. This is already a killer problem for fuel cell vehicles which are many times more efficient and require many times less storage capacity for an acceptable range. The practicality isn't there.

CheapSlider · 16th May 2007, 07:37 AM

Hydrogen is an energy carrier not an energy source

You might wish to google for "CSP" (Concentrated Solar Power)

Hydrogen pipelines are more expensive than electric lines
The germans have made a study about harvesting solar energy in the sahara where the sun would be used to drive turbines to make electricity and transported to the european grid.

This would be more viable than using hydrogen which is made commercially from methane (natural gas- steam reformation) which is supplied by the oil companies who have an interested in getting around US fuel regulations*.

Edit
*Hydrogen vehicles are exempt from CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) regulations

Thunderchild · 16th May 2007, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Was it you who was on about this before? - solar panels are inefficient, and electrolysis to produce hydrogen is VERY inefficient - it's really an EXTREMELY poor way to try and store energy, which is what you're actually trying to do!.

just how efficient is the electrolyses ? I don't know this figure and am curious to find out, if it is ineficient in the sense 100 W of electric goes into the process and 50 W worth of hydrogen comes out, ? that would mean the process is 50 % efficient so where does the rest of the electric go ? into heat in the water ?.

the fact that solar panels are only 25 % efficient oh dear what a tragedy ? aren't our current coal (fossil fuel) plants only 25 % efficient we forget that don't we we think oooh I've got 1 KW cominf out of my wall socket, we forget that to obtain it 2-3 KW of heat has already been dumped into the atmosphere and the related CO2 to making the neccesary 3-4 KW to get that final 1 KW of electricity

Thunderchild · 16th May 2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CheapSlider

Hydrogen pipelines are more expensive than electric lines
The germans have made a study about harvesting solar energy in the sahara where the sun would be used to drive turbines to make electricity and transported to the european grid.

but we never worried too much about forking out money to carry methane accross the ocean did we ? we can use that same pipe and as hydrogen is only methane without the carbon they can go down it together so as the hydrogen plant gradualy takes off (lol not literally) it can be supplemented with methane

So what was the result of the german investigation ? you do loose power in transportation don't you ? hydrogen would remain as it was. ok it needs pumping any chance of the fact that it is continiously being made make enough push to put it through ?

of course i never said that we can't use the solar panels for electricity as well

Thunderchild · 16th May 2007, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oznog

What you suggest has critical problems:
1. Making hydrogen in an industrial setting is fairly efficient regardless of the power source, however, burning hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is no more efficient- probably less- than burning a comparable amount of gasoline energy. Right now if you used grid electricity, which is mostly coal/nat gas fueled, it would result in more emissions than running the cars on gasoline. Sure if we had free, unlimited solar power that would be nice. First thing I'd do is replace all the coal-fired plants.

2. Unfortunately, hydrogen is extremely difficult to store in large volumes. This is already a killer problem for fuel cell vehicles which are many times more efficient and require many times less storage capacity for an acceptable range. The practicality isn't there.

1. true it will be nore efficient I never said it was only that it would eliminate fossil fuel and why should it be less efficient ? you know all that carbon in petrol does not make power ? hydrogen is PURE power no waste so you will be carrying more power in the same volume !

2. how big are the fuel cells in cars ? with a hydrogen tank and a combustion engine you don't need that extra bulk, don't we already run methane cars ? methane is hydrogen with an atom of useless carbon for every four of hydrogen and it is a much bigger atom than hydrogen, you would probably carry twice the amount of fuel in the same tanks ALREADY USED for methane cars !

Thunderchild · 16th May 2007, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarveyH42

Solar panels in the desert? Where is the water coming from? ..........

Global warming? I'm pretty sure the planet was much warmer before the Ice Age, the now. I believe the planet is recovering from whatever catastrophy that caused the cold, man has little to do with it, and not much we can do to prevent/reverse/slow it down. Some people need to control everything and everybody around them, really pisses them off when they can't...

My interest in enviroment, is that this where we live, it's not a toilet. Why live in filth when we have other choices? I'd like to see less stuff made for limited use, then later dumped in a hole. Why use so much plastic, when paper would work just fine.

well you could put them near the sea ? perhaps the already salt present could be an asset ?

Global warming is a problem and we are not helping, yes you say once the earth was warmer before the dinosaurs... GUESS WHY. ever been taught some natural history in primary school ?

The earth was once in a state of global warming, and hey we weren't even around wonder why that was ? infact there was not much around except trees and plants. and what do trees and plants do ? they take in CO2 absorb the C and put out O2. then they died got buried and fossilized.... making fossil fuels. All that carbon that was once in the air keeping the earth in a state of global warming over millions of years was absorbed and stashed away under the ground, now we d!ck head humans come along and let it all out again and then say oooh its not us its the volcanoes its the cows farting.....is the human race stupid or something, we are taking the earth back to what it was a few million years ago and that state of affairs is not that that we can live in. Of course if you think a bit harder now you'll guess why the piramids are said to be possibly over a million years old, yea our technological ancestors could have built them before they wiped themselves out like we have, then the egyptans came a long and reused them, ok so what were the piramids originally for ? sorry I'm not an archeologist and it is getting off topic

Hero999 · 16th May 2007, 08:05 PM

There are far easier ways to produce hydrogen than electrolysis. The normal method involves stripping of the hydrogen from natural gas (which is a fossil fuel) but it's a lot cleaner than petrol so it's still pretty environmentally friendly.

Thunderchild · 16th May 2007, 08:16 PM

yes but it is still releasing carbon or rather CO2 into the air and when the gas runs out ? i sure hope all fossil fuels run out soon or we are doomed

mneary · 16th May 2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

you know all that carbon in petrol does not make power ?

that's wrong.

Thunderchild · 17th May 2007, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mneary

that's wrong.

please be more specific, as far as I know the hydrogen burns and the carbon is chucked out bonding itself with oxygen making CO2, so not only do we make a poisonous gas but we rob ourselves of oxygen. By making the hydrogen from water we are also putting into the atmosphere the oxygen it will need to burn

Thunderchild · 17th May 2007, 05:51 PM

erm I'm still waiting for some figures people..... you all came along with lots of cons and not much info to back em up

**Nigel Goodwin** · 17th May 2007, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

erm I'm still waiting for some figures people..... you all came along with lots of cons and not much info to back em up

I've no idea what the figures are, but it's your silly idea - try it and see!.

As far as I'm aware electrolysis to produce hydrogen is VERY inefficient, probably more like 5% than 50%?, then burning the hydrogen in an engine is also VERY inefficient - it's a REALLY bad way to try and store energy. Storing it in a lead acid battery would be a LOT more practical!.

There's plenty on the net about it, try http://www.freelists.org/archives/li.../msg00015.html

15th May 2007, 08:14 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	Hydrogen Well it is as simple as that Hydrogen, we already use gas so what is the issue many convert their cars to gas we use gas for heating and cooking what more do we want, ah but you will say where do we get it ? answer is easy we make it from water through electrolysis powered by solar panels. now you are going to say nah what about winter cloud etc. agreed europe and north america will have this problem to a varying degree. what about the african desert where else is there more sun ? now your gonna say yes but how do we get it to europe (well I live in Europe you american chaps will have to figure it out you way your end). easy don't we already carry methane gas from africa to europe in pipes under the mediteranean ? Frankly I can't see what all the fuss is over, hell you can even pump the blasted hydrogen down the tube WITH methane why not there's not much difference it is still hydrogen in both cases only that methane has carbon with it so if we were'nt to be able to make enough hydrogen initially we can make it up with methane. so now you gonna say the most brainy, ah but burning hydrogen will still make heat and cause green house effect. well 1) by eliminating CO2 it will reduce green house effects immediatly as in less bad gasses, secondly a solar panel is not magically making electricity out of nothing just because light and heat beam on it. as a french scientist long ago established valid for energy and matter: "nothing is created and nothing is destroying - all is transformed" (about the only sane thing my technology teacher taught me). so if our wonderful solar panel is 25 % efficient for every KW of rays hitting it it takes 250 W (of heat) out of that 1 KW and makes it into electricity so even if we were to burn the hydrogen the heat it releases is but the original solar energy that would have hit the earth anyway and heated it by another 250 W per square meter where there is a solar panel. So whats the big deal ? __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography Last edited by Thunderchild; 15th May 2007 at 08:19 PM.

16th May 2007, 07:25 AM	(permalink)
Oznog Experienced Member	What you suggest has critical problems: 1. Making hydrogen in an industrial setting is fairly efficient regardless of the power source, however, burning hydrogen in an internal combustion engine is no more efficient- probably less- than burning a comparable amount of gasoline energy. Right now if you used grid electricity, which is mostly coal/nat gas fueled, it would result in more emissions than running the cars on gasoline. Sure if we had free, unlimited solar power that would be nice. First thing I'd do is replace all the coal-fired plants. 2. Unfortunately, hydrogen is extremely difficult to store in large volumes. This is already a killer problem for fuel cell vehicles which are many times more efficient and require many times less storage capacity for an acceptable range. The practicality isn't there. __________________ I thought what I'd do was I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

16th May 2007, 07:37 AM	(permalink)
CheapSlider Experienced Member	Csp Hydrogen is an energy carrier not an energy source You might wish to google for "CSP" (Concentrated Solar Power) Hydrogen pipelines are more expensive than electric lines The germans have made a study about harvesting solar energy in the sahara where the sun would be used to drive turbines to make electricity and transported to the european grid. This would be more viable than using hydrogen which is made commercially from methane (natural gas- steam reformation) which is supplied by the oil companies who have an interested in getting around US fuel regulations. Edit* Hydrogen vehicles are exempt from CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) regulations Last edited by CheapSlider; 16th May 2007 at 07:41 AM.*

16th May 2007, 08:05 PM	(permalink)
Hero999 Experienced Member	There are far easier ways to produce hydrogen than electrolysis. The normal method involves stripping of the hydrogen from natural gas (which is a fossil fuel) but it's a lot cleaner than petrol so it's still pretty environmentally friendly. __________________ What's so bad about Microsoft? Get Opera it's simply a superb browser.

16th May 2007, 08:16 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	yes but it is still releasing carbon or rather CO2 into the air and when the gas runs out ? i sure hope all fossil fuels run out soon or we are doomed __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

15th May 2007, 09:19 PM	(permalink)
HarveyH42 Experienced Member	Solar panels in the desert? Where is the water coming from? Wouldn't the water be better used for agricultural production, famine never ends in africa... Somebody ought to do some calculations, I played with some numbers once, but I got a hunch you would need solar panels of consideriable size to seperate and compress the hydrogen, just for an individual with modest energy needs. Could guess on start up cost, but figure it would be many years before it started paying off. Global warming? I'm pretty sure the planet was much warmer before the Ice Age, the now. I believe the planet is recovering from whatever catastrophy that caused the cold, man has little to do with it, and not much we can do to prevent/reverse/slow it down. Some people need to control everything and everybody around them, really pisses them off when they can't... My interest in enviroment, is that this where we live, it's not a toilet. Why live in filth when we have other choices? I'd like to see less stuff made for limited use, then later dumped in a hole. Why use so much plastic, when paper would work just fine.

17th May 2007, 05:51 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	erm I'm still waiting for some figures people..... you all came along with lots of cons and not much info to back em up __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Latest
Making Hydrogen	Overclocked	Alternative Energy	73	30th August 2007 05:18 AM
HYDROGEN GENERATOR - fuel cell ?	badspell68	Alternative Energy	67	3rd June 2007 10:10 PM
Hydrogen on demand and can switch on and off patent	mramos1	Alternative Energy	19	28th December 2006 10:55 AM
hydrogen power system	philba	Alternative Energy	1	29th August 2006 12:50 AM
A PWM Control Project for Hydrogen Generation.	chemelec	Electronic Projects Design/Ideas/Reviews	56	15th June 2005 05:32 PM