Hydrogen - Page 3 - Electronic Circuits Projects Diagrams Free

Thunderchild · 22nd May 2007, 07:08 PM

well we already have methane pipelines so why can't we have hydrogen pipes and as I said the two gasses can be fed down the same main pipe, Aren't there lots of people in Africa that need a means of survival, surly people could be employed to keep the panels clean you could even put a wind screen wiper system on them haha, don't our current power stations require people to run them ? often highly paid technicians

bloody-orc · 22nd May 2007, 07:19 PM

One thing is creating H2, Other thing is carrying it. The damn bastards leaks very well. also, what happens when two cars think, they should crash... gasoline + one spark = nothing. Gasoline needs flame to start burning (vapors is another matter here, I'm not talking about that). But H2! light a match 100m away and WOOSH! half of the town is clean. Haven't you done experiments in your chemistry class

I'm not saying that petrol ruulz or anything. I'm personally against petrol myself; but I don't see H2 as an alternative (at least not in the near future). There are some a lot more convenient ways to propel the 4 wheeled machine by the road. I use 2 wheels and bone-power. Hey someone even made a car, that ran on piles of poo. even human one!

I see electricity a better option. Of-course I know those batteries weigh a ton, but for how long? LiPo's weigh less than the wires connecting it to the LED

Thunderchild · 22nd May 2007, 07:23 PM

I persoanlly use the two wheeled vehicule powered by my own mucles as well, there is of course the posibbility of carrying the electricity straight over to europe in cables and distributing it but I don't know how feasable that is we would be talking very high voltages can they be put under the sea ?

bloody-orc · 22nd May 2007, 07:30 PM

No cables are VERY bad. the cable from Tallinn to Helsinki (90 minute drive on boat) cost a few billion euros IIRC. That's a lot as you probably know. And to carry Hydrogen... even worse idea. ever heard about zeppelins? 1:10 urned in violent flames killing 99% of passengers.

**Nigel Goodwin** · 22nd May 2007, 08:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

Dear all being rather p!ssed at undue criticism (yes I now have the proof that is it undue) I researched, this comes from the wikipedia:

"The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely. Some report 50–70%[1], while others report 80–94%.[2] These values refer only to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included."

Try reading the other links I posted, or do a simple google - there's LOT'S of sites saying it's too inefficient to be of any use, and even giving schemes to make it more efficient - and if large scale solar panels were of any use (compared to other sources) they would already be widespread!

bloody-orc · 22nd May 2007, 08:13 PM

The chemicals needed to make the solar panel cost a LOT right now. researchers are developing new ways to do the panels, but it's still a working progress.

Pommie · 23rd May 2007, 06:33 AM

The biggest problem with hydrogen is it isn't easy to liquefy. LPG is liquid at about 40psi and can be stored in a relatively light container. Liquid Hydrogen cannot be stored at STP and so is stored as a highly compressed gas at around 5000psi. This requires a very heavy container that is a potential bomb. It also takes a large amount of energy to compress the gas. Hydrogen is also not a very good fuel, it takes about 3 liters of liquid hydrogen to produce the same energy as 1 liter of petrol.

One day soon, someone will find a method to turn energy into hydrocarbons and all our problems will be solved. Here in Aus we could put a few nuclear plants in the outback and churn out petrol equivalent all day long. We could even have solar powered stations if the only energy required is in the form of heat.

Mike.

Oznog · 23rd May 2007, 07:38 AM

The shame is that California's EV mandate was turning out some very promising battery-electric vehicles, then they got the guy appointed chairman of the commitee and got the mandate changed to include hydrogen fuel cells the mfgs discontinued their EV programs that very day.

Nothing against hydrogen, it's not hydrogen's fault, it's that is was used to kill the functioning EV programs with this hydrogen plan where the mfgs won't end up having to do anything at all, effectively nullifying the whole concept. Mfgs can just keep pointing out "the technology is not ready" as their excuse each year.

mneary · 23rd May 2007, 06:15 PM

The thing that I have against hydrogen is that it's only an energy transport medium (and not a very good one). It's not an energy source.

It's distracting to the naive who should be looking for improvements or replacements to our sources of energy.

Rolf · 23rd May 2007, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloody-orc

No cables are VERY bad. the cable from Tallinn to Helsinki (90 minute drive on boat) cost a few billion euros IIRC. That's a lot as you probably know. And to carry Hydrogen... even worse idea. ever heard about zeppelins? 1:10 urned in violent flames killing 99% of passengers.

Maybe you should read this:
http://search.abb.com/library/ABBLib...&Action=Launch

According to the latest investigation of the zeppelin tragedy, they found that a major cause was that the dope (paint) the Germans used, was a mixture of iron oxide and aluminum powder, it was just a little flammable and set off by lightning in the tail away from the hydrogen gas bags. Of cause the Germans kept this a secret during the investigation that followed.
All this was exposed in a very interesting PBS program not long ago.

Hero999 · 26th May 2007, 10:07 PM

The problem is that converting electrical energy into hydrogen then to useful energy is far more inefficient than converting electricity to useful energy.

The more steps you put into the chain the more inefficient it becomes, electricity is already a secondary energy source, therefore hydroden would be a tertiary energy source.

The electricity transmission system is very efficient and converting the electricity to hydrogen, transmitting it then converting it useful energy would be a lot more wasteful. It's common sense if you ask me.

Back to oxygen consumption, when you think that people can survive quite high up on the mountains when the oxygen concentration is nearly half of what it is at sea level I'm not too worried about it being depleated. Also increasing the amount og CO2 will also increase photosynthesis so I'm not going to panic.

Thunderchild · 27th May 2007, 07:15 AM

why will increasing CO2 increase photosynthesis ? do twice or three times the amount of trees suddenly spring up ?

well if carring the electreicity is easier then fine do it that way, all I am trying to point out is that a hot place like africa will maximise power production and it has more exposure and not a lot of clouds around to block the sun of course just wait another 30 years and you will start to get the same conditions over your houses so the problem will be solved

Thunderchild · 27th May 2007, 08:13 AM

from the little I read in that PDF (I will read the rest) the power is actually carried as DC thats a very good idea as it eliminates the skin effect of AC that would require larger cables I suppose the only issue with everything being DC is the stepping transformers and large power motors that need AC to run (brush less motors)

Hero999 · 27th May 2007, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

why will increasing CO2 increase photosynthesis ? do twice or three times the amount of trees suddenly spring up ?

Another myth is that photosynthesis mainly occurs in trees and other terrestrial plants

The truth is that most of the photosynthesis occurs in algae and other aquatic plants that live in the world's oceans, remember most of the world's surface is covered by the sea.

Quote:

well if carring the electreicity is easier then fine do it that way, all I am trying to point out is that a hot place like africa will maximise power production and it has more exposure and not a lot of clouds around to block the sun of course just wait another 30 years and you will start to get the same conditions over your houses so the problem will be solved

What you are forgetting is that an increase in global temperature will actually reduce the amount of sunshine and increase rainfall on the planet. Increasing the temperature would mean more water will evaporate from the sea so more would condense in the upper atmosphere forming rain and snow. Although some areas would receive less rainfall far many others will receive more so agriculture might be possible in areas which are currently deserts.

If it's more cloudy then how is that going to make solar power more efficient?

I don't believe all the doom and gloom stories and I'm not saying that the effects climate change would be overall positive but an increase in temperature would boost argiculture on a global scale. I agree there would be winner and loosers, an increase in sea level would reduce the amount of land available slightly but there would be huge areas that would become arable that are now too cold or dry.

Quote:

from the little I read in that PDF (I will read the rest) the power is actually carried as DC thats a very good idea as it eliminates the skin effect of AC that would require larger cables I suppose the only issue with everything being DC is the stepping transformers and large power motors that need AC to run (brush less motors)

I haven't read the article but from what I know in general DC power is only used in bulk power distribution and on some train and tram networks, it's normally converted to AC by an inverter before being distributed to the end user.

firewater · 3rd September 2007, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bloody-orc

One thing is creating H2, Other thing is carrying it. The damn bastards leaks very well. also, what happens when two cars think, they should crash... gasoline + one spark = nothing. Gasoline needs flame to start burning (vapors is another matter here, I'm not talking about that). But H2! light a match 100m away and WOOSH! half of the town is clean. Haven't you done experiments in your chemistry class

That is not correct, since Hydrogen is lighter than air it dissipates very quickly and is actually much less dangerous than gasoline and when leaked it does not contaminate the ground and go on to get into the water supply where it can destroy fish and other wildlife.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...81294042323461
Also I read a book in Borders books about pipe lines in Germany I think it was that were designed to carry natural gas that have been carrying Hydrogen for years.I'll get the name of the book and post it.

22nd May 2007, 07:08 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	well we already have methane pipelines so why can't we have hydrogen pipes and as I said the two gasses can be fed down the same main pipe, Aren't there lots of people in Africa that need a means of survival, surly people could be employed to keep the panels clean you could even put a wind screen wiper system on them haha, don't our current power stations require people to run them ? often highly paid technicians __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography Last edited by Thunderchild; 22nd May 2007 at 07:20 PM.

22nd May 2007, 07:19 PM	(permalink)
bloody-orc Experienced Member	One thing is creating H2, Other thing is carrying it. The damn bastards leaks very well. also, what happens when two cars think, they should crash... gasoline + one spark = nothing. Gasoline needs flame to start burning (vapors is another matter here, I'm not talking about that). But H2! light a match 100m away and WOOSH! half of the town is clean. Haven't you done experiments in your chemistry class I'm not saying that petrol ruulz or anything. I'm personally against petrol myself; but I don't see H2 as an alternative (at least not in the near future). There are some a lot more convenient ways to propel the 4 wheeled machine by the road. I use 2 wheels and bone-power. Hey someone even made a car, that ran on piles of poo. even human one! I see electricity a better option. Of-course I know those batteries weigh a ton, but for how long? LiPo's weigh less than the wires connecting it to the LED __________________ Need Help? Press F1 If that doesn\'t help you, ask me... I might know better.

22nd May 2007, 07:23 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	I persoanlly use the two wheeled vehicule powered by my own mucles as well, there is of course the posibbility of carrying the electricity straight over to europe in cables and distributing it but I don't know how feasable that is we would be talking very high voltages can they be put under the sea ? __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

22nd May 2007, 07:30 PM	(permalink)
bloody-orc Experienced Member	No cables are VERY bad. the cable from Tallinn to Helsinki (90 minute drive on boat) cost a few billion euros IIRC. That's a lot as you probably know. And to carry Hydrogen... even worse idea. ever heard about zeppelins? 1:10 urned in violent flames killing 99% of passengers. __________________ Need Help? Press F1 If that doesn\'t help you, ask me... I might know better.

22nd May 2007, 08:13 PM	(permalink)
bloody-orc Experienced Member	The chemicals needed to make the solar panel cost a LOT right now. researchers are developing new ways to do the panels, but it's still a working progress. __________________ Need Help? Press F1 If that doesn\'t help you, ask me... I might know better.

23rd May 2007, 06:33 AM	(permalink)
Pommie Experienced Member	The biggest problem with hydrogen is it isn't easy to liquefy. LPG is liquid at about 40psi and can be stored in a relatively light container. Liquid Hydrogen cannot be stored at STP and so is stored as a highly compressed gas at around 5000psi. This requires a very heavy container that is a potential bomb. It also takes a large amount of energy to compress the gas. Hydrogen is also not a very good fuel, it takes about 3 liters of liquid hydrogen to produce the same energy as 1 liter of petrol. One day soon, someone will find a method to turn energy into hydrocarbons and all our problems will be solved. Here in Aus we could put a few nuclear plants in the outback and churn out petrol equivalent all day long. We could even have solar powered stations if the only energy required is in the form of heat. Mike.

23rd May 2007, 07:38 AM	(permalink)
Oznog Experienced Member	The shame is that California's EV mandate was turning out some very promising battery-electric vehicles, then they got the guy appointed chairman of the commitee and got the mandate changed to include hydrogen fuel cells the mfgs discontinued their EV programs that very day. Nothing against hydrogen, it's not hydrogen's fault, it's that is was used to kill the functioning EV programs with this hydrogen plan where the mfgs won't end up having to do anything at all, effectively nullifying the whole concept. Mfgs can just keep pointing out "the technology is not ready" as their excuse each year. __________________ I thought what I'd do was I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

23rd May 2007, 06:15 PM	(permalink)
mneary Experienced Member	The thing that I have against hydrogen is that it's only an energy transport medium (and not a very good one). It's not an energy source. It's distracting to the naive who should be looking for improvements or replacements to our sources of energy.

26th May 2007, 10:07 PM	(permalink)
Hero999 Experienced Member	The problem is that converting electrical energy into hydrogen then to useful energy is far more inefficient than converting electricity to useful energy. The more steps you put into the chain the more inefficient it becomes, electricity is already a secondary energy source, therefore hydroden would be a tertiary energy source. The electricity transmission system is very efficient and converting the electricity to hydrogen, transmitting it then converting it useful energy would be a lot more wasteful. It's common sense if you ask me. Back to oxygen consumption, when you think that people can survive quite high up on the mountains when the oxygen concentration is nearly half of what it is at sea level I'm not too worried about it being depleated. Also increasing the amount og CO2 will also increase photosynthesis so I'm not going to panic. __________________ What's so bad about Microsoft? Get Opera it's simply a superb browser.

27th May 2007, 07:15 AM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	why will increasing CO2 increase photosynthesis ? do twice or three times the amount of trees suddenly spring up ? well if carring the electreicity is easier then fine do it that way, all I am trying to point out is that a hot place like africa will maximise power production and it has more exposure and not a lot of clouds around to block the sun of course just wait another 30 years and you will start to get the same conditions over your houses so the problem will be solved __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

27th May 2007, 08:13 AM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	from the little I read in that PDF (I will read the rest) the power is actually carried as DC thats a very good idea as it eliminates the skin effect of AC that would require larger cables I suppose the only issue with everything being DC is the stepping transformers and large power motors that need AC to run (brush less motors) __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

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