fuel batteries - Electronic Circuits Projects Diagrams Free

Thunderchild · 18th March 2007, 11:50 AM

ok so how does the battery work that combines oxygen and hydrogen to make elctricity work ? can they be made/bought ?

**Nigel Goodwin** · 18th March 2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

ok so how does the battery work that combines oxygen and hydrogen to make elctricity work ? can they be made/bought ?

Isn't that a fuel cell?, I suspect they are VERY, VERY expensive - assuming you could find one to buy?.

In any case, where are you going to get the hydrogen and oxygen?.

Thunderchild · 18th March 2007, 12:10 PM

yea ok idea scrapped...

justDIY · 18th March 2007, 12:24 PM

I dunno about hydrogen oxygen fuel cells, but you can buy alcohol + oxygen fuel cells. the oxygen comes from the atmosphere, so you don't need dangerous oxygen cylinders around.

I cant find the site right now, but there was a lab supply store that sold small cells for research / teaching.

**3v0** · 18th March 2007, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nigel Goodwin

Isn't that a fuel cell?, I suspect they are VERY, VERY expensive - assuming you could find one to buy?.

In any case, where are you going to get the hydrogen and oxygen?.

Of course they are expensive, low productiona and prototypes are. Large scale production will do a lot to cut cost but research to get the cost of production down may still need to be done.

When I mentioned fuel cells at our local donut shop I got trashed by one of the locals who insisted they were 20, maybe 50 years away. It may take a few more years to get them on the market I hope for the planets sake it is not 50.

Last night NOVA (IIFC) reported that in China's major cities the top source of carbon dioxide is now autos. They will soon surpass the US in generation of the same. Cars built in China are dirty compared to either in that they only conform to the EU2 standards.

Ford, GM, Honda, and Mazda are all working on fuel hydrogen fuel cells for their cars. I suspect there are others.

Ford/Mazda has a plug in hybrid that use a fuel cell with batteries to provide a 200 mile range and up to 85 MPH in a zero emissions package.

I do not know what the schedule is for the above. Honda was talking about some sort of increased distribution of the hydrogen powered FCX in 2008 at the LA auto show.

HarveyH42 · 18th March 2007, 01:35 PM

http://www.sciplus.com/singleItem.cf...LogFrom=Search

$139.95 kit, little expensive for a classroom toy, but might be worth it to learn about fuel cells.

More info at:

http://www.thamesandkosmos.com/products/fc/fc2.html

It would at least show you what's involved, and give you some ideas on what you'll need to build a larger one.

Thunderchild · 18th March 2007, 01:46 PM

ford already produce green cars obviously unless goverments get off their asses and the top bods owning the petrol comapnies agree to loose out and retire on their already millions nothing will happen, I am not sure whether it is combustion engine running on hydrogen or a fuel cell but ford do produce fleets of such cars for companies that have the resources and need (what with 100 odd cars) to set up their own fueling solutions, until there are hydrogen (and possibly oxygen) pumps along with what I hope will become the old fashioned petrol nothing is going to happen. WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY RIGHT NOW but money is more important to some people, a standard combustion engine in ALL cars today can quite easily run on hydrogen and pollute NO MORE

Thunderchild · 18th March 2007, 01:49 PM

and as the kit you link to shows solar power is a green and redily available method of making the gasses, right at the pump, it is difficult and expensive to store power in batteries but what easier method of accumulating power than as gas !

**Nigel Goodwin** · 18th March 2007, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY RIGHT NOW but money is more important to some people, a standard combustion engine in ALL cars today can quite easily run on hydrogen and pollute NO MORE

Petrol is a nice safe fuel, easily transported, and simple and safe to use - hydrogen is EXTREMELY dangerous, both to transport and to use - it's not really a practical alternative. The other problem of course is where do you get the hydrogen?, electrolysis? - then where do you get the power for that?, all you're doing is moving the pollution from the car to a generating plant.

Thunderchild · 18th March 2007, 03:02 PM

petrol apart from running out in 60 odd years is also dangerous and very very poluting. We have solar power stations ? why not directly use the power on site to produce hydrogen and oxygen ? it will cost less if necessary to pipe gas to where it is needed than set up cables for electricity that will partly be lost in the wire too due to resistance and for any distance needs a lot of apparatus like transformers etc.

Hero999 · 18th March 2007, 04:19 PM

Petrol isn't so bad if it's used in a modern engine with a catalytic converter, I agree it isn't a renewable source but the best alternative to it is biodiesel not hydrogen.

Thunderchild · 18th March 2007, 05:35 PM

yes biodiesel is a good idea as well.

**Nigel Goodwin** · 18th March 2007, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

petrol apart from running out in 60 odd years is also dangerous and very very poluting.

No where near as dangerous as hydrogen - think airships and massive disasters!.

Quote:

We have solar power stations ? why not directly use the power on site to produce hydrogen and oxygen ?

Because solar power is inefficient, and so is converting it to hydrogen and oxygen.

Quote:

it will cost less if necessary to pipe gas to where it is needed than set up cables for electricity that will partly be lost in the wire too due to resistance and for any distance needs a lot of apparatus like transformers etc.

You are completely wrong on that thought! - do you think gas magically moves through pipes on it's own?, not even considering the disasterous effects of a leak - far worse than gas currently used.

Sceadwian · 18th March 2007, 08:17 PM

That depends Nigel, Hydrogen is lighter than air so it doesn't stick around, it'll basically go straight up as soon as it's warm enough to turn into a gas. Gasoline vapors are denser than air and will collect in low areas. The Hindenburg was filled with hydrogen gas not liquefied hydrogen and the self combustion temperature of hydrogen is slightly higher than gasoline (even high octane versions) The fact that it's usually stored as a compressed gas is a problem. I don't know what they plan on doing to fix that, but the fact that it's a gas under pressure is more dangerous than the fact that it's a combustible gas. That doesn't make switching an entire country or countries over to a completely different energy source any more practicle. Even if hydrogen fuel cells were 5 times more efficient that gas and safer the logistics and legality of simply switching to it are enormous.

Thunderchild · 18th March 2007, 08:43 PM

well being a more environmentally friendly energy source we need not worry to much about efficienzy but i am sure it is good after all all of the gas burns and leaves no fumes that were originally part of the petrol, the air baloons were not safe because the gas was quite exsposed and heck that was many years ago they just did not take the necesary precautions

18th March 2007, 11:50 AM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	fuel batteries ok so how does the battery work that combines oxygen and hydrogen to make elctricity work ? can they be made/bought ? __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

18th March 2007, 12:10 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	yea ok idea scrapped... __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

18th March 2007, 12:24 PM	(permalink)
justDIY Experienced Member	I dunno about hydrogen oxygen fuel cells, but you can buy alcohol + oxygen fuel cells. the oxygen comes from the atmosphere, so you don't need dangerous oxygen cylinders around. I cant find the site right now, but there was a lab supply store that sold small cells for research / teaching. __________________ If you don't have a planet, what good are gold bars? want to contact me directly? gmail gordonthree check out my project website: http://projects.dimension-x.net Favorite numbers: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

18th March 2007, 01:46 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	ford already produce green cars obviously unless goverments get off their asses and the top bods owning the petrol comapnies agree to loose out and retire on their already millions nothing will happen, I am not sure whether it is combustion engine running on hydrogen or a fuel cell but ford do produce fleets of such cars for companies that have the resources and need (what with 100 odd cars) to set up their own fueling solutions, until there are hydrogen (and possibly oxygen) pumps along with what I hope will become the old fashioned petrol nothing is going to happen. WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY RIGHT NOW but money is more important to some people, a standard combustion engine in ALL cars today can quite easily run on hydrogen and pollute NO MORE __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

18th March 2007, 01:49 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	and as the kit you link to shows solar power is a green and redily available method of making the gasses, right at the pump, it is difficult and expensive to store power in batteries but what easier method of accumulating power than as gas ! __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

18th March 2007, 01:35 PM	(permalink)
HarveyH42 Experienced Member	http://www.sciplus.com/singleItem.cf...LogFrom=Search $139.95 kit, little expensive for a classroom toy, but might be worth it to learn about fuel cells. More info at: http://www.thamesandkosmos.com/products/fc/fc2.html It would at least show you what's involved, and give you some ideas on what you'll need to build a larger one.

18th March 2007, 03:02 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	petrol apart from running out in 60 odd years is also dangerous and very very poluting. We have solar power stations ? why not directly use the power on site to produce hydrogen and oxygen ? it will cost less if necessary to pipe gas to where it is needed than set up cables for electricity that will partly be lost in the wire too due to resistance and for any distance needs a lot of apparatus like transformers etc. __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

18th March 2007, 04:19 PM	(permalink)
Hero999 Experienced Member	Petrol isn't so bad if it's used in a modern engine with a catalytic converter, I agree it isn't a renewable source but the best alternative to it is biodiesel not hydrogen. __________________ What's so bad about Microsoft? Get Opera it's simply a superb browser. Last edited by Hero999; 18th March 2007 at 05:37 PM.

18th March 2007, 05:35 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	yes biodiesel is a good idea as well. __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

18th March 2007, 08:17 PM	(permalink)
Sceadwian Experienced Member Blog Entries: 1	That depends Nigel, Hydrogen is lighter than air so it doesn't stick around, it'll basically go straight up as soon as it's warm enough to turn into a gas. Gasoline vapors are denser than air and will collect in low areas. The Hindenburg was filled with hydrogen gas not liquefied hydrogen and the self combustion temperature of hydrogen is slightly higher than gasoline (even high octane versions) The fact that it's usually stored as a compressed gas is a problem. I don't know what they plan on doing to fix that, but the fact that it's a gas under pressure is more dangerous than the fact that it's a combustible gas. That doesn't make switching an entire country or countries over to a completely different energy source any more practicle. Even if hydrogen fuel cells were 5 times more efficient that gas and safer the logistics and legality of simply switching to it are enormous. __________________ Curiosity killed the cat; That's why they have nine lives.

18th March 2007, 08:43 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	well being a more environmentally friendly energy source we need not worry to much about efficienzy but i am sure it is good after all all of the gas burns and leaves no fumes that were originally part of the petrol, the air baloons were not safe because the gas was quite exsposed and heck that was many years ago they just did not take the necesary precautions __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

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