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Thunderchild · 23rd March 2007, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hero999

Wind turbines kill birds and generate infrasound which can make some people feel unwell;

yea I am one of them even change in air pressure with the change of weather can make me feel real groggy.

Well as it is we transport methane from africa to europe, so whats so bad about setting up solar panels in africa as it is nice and hot almost all yea round and pipe the produce hydrogen to europe instead of the methane ?

**Nigel Goodwin** · 23rd March 2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

Well as it is we transport methane from africa to europe, so whats so bad about setting up solar panels in africa as it is nice and hot almost all yea round and pipe the produce hydrogen to europe instead of the methane ?

You still seem to be ignoring the very low output of solar panels?, and their massive expense? - what's the point of producing small quantities of very expensive hydrogen?.

HarveyH42 · 23rd March 2007, 11:45 PM

How much hydrogen does a fuel cell use in a day for a car? I remember a thread about producing hydrogen, think there were equations for calculating the volume produced and rate, according to the power applied. Might go back and see if there is a way to determine the size of a solar panel need to supply enough hydrogen to drive the car for a day.

Even if the fuel is free, it would take a lifetime for the car and panels to pay for themselves in savings. Definately rich-boy toys...

Sceadwian · 24th March 2007, 02:34 AM

Considering the cost of repairs to such a car, it's take more than a lifetime.

Thunderchild · 24th March 2007, 08:31 AM

well why don't you guys go and ask Mr Ford, Ford ALREADY MAKE SUCH CARS as I said before but we seem to be a lot of old fashioned deaf and blind people here.

Solar panels are not efficient eh ? so bludy what ? they perhaps only produce pollution in their making once made they will provide power for decades without ANY POLLUTION. theres no point in say oooh its costs more than the way we already do it, thanks thats why we are still doing it the old way and pollution because humanity is a bunch of self destructive idiots that care more for money than their own future well being. like the chap at work that looks at me like I'm nuts when I insisted that THIS bag is for our platic bottles and not anything else so that they can be put out on wednesdays when the rubbish people collect the paper and plastic, needless to say he still continued to put metal ink tub lids into it.

PLEASE HUMANITY GROW UP

**Nigel Goodwin** · 24th March 2007, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

Solar panels are not efficient eh ? so bludy what ?

Because they are so inefficient your idea won't work! - and then producing hydrogen by electrolysis is very inefficient as well - no point producing hydrogen if there's no space on the planet for people to live!.

If you want to use solar panels, then store the energy in a much more efficient method - simple lead/acid batteries make hydrogen production look stupid!.

Or, far more sensibly, don't use solar panels - there are far better methods that provide far greater power (wind power, tide power etc.).

Hero999 · 24th March 2007, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

I said before but we seem to be a lot of old fashioned deaf and blind people here.

Right so we#re the ones with the problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

they perhaps only produce pollution in their making once made they will provide power for decades without ANY POLLUTION.

Some say that more energy is used to make solar pannels than the amount of energy they produce in their entire life time.

Thunderchild · 24th March 2007, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hero999

Some say that more energy is used to make solar pannels than the amount of energy they produce in their entire life time.

Then in that case we do have a problem. but consider, I am willing to assume a solar panel is going to last at least 30 years, so 365 days a year X 30 years is = 10'950 days, assuming a 1 KW/h panel will get light for 8 hours a day halve the days of the year that's 40'000 KW aka 40 MW so am I to beleive that it takes 40 MW to make a solar panel capable of 1 KW/h ?

I do poses a couple of small panels (0.25 W each) that still work after 20 years and considering that they have no moving parts nothing to ware out the can go on working for many more years does anybody know how long a solar panel can operate for ? if there are no figures for this it is probably because even the first ones made are still in good working order !

**Nigel Goodwin** · 24th March 2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

Then in that case we do have a problem. but consider, I am willing to assume a solar panel is going to last at least 30 years, so 365 days a year X 30 years is = 10'950 days, assuming a 1 KW/h panel will get light for 8 hours a day halve the days of the year that's 40'000 KW aka 40 MW so am I to beleive that it takes 40 MW to make a solar panel capable of 1 KW/h ?

I do poses a couple of small panels (0.25 W each) that still work after 20 years and considering that they have no moving parts nothing to ware out the can go on working for many more years does anybody know how long a solar panel can operate for ? if there are no figures for this it is probably because even the first ones made are still in good working order !

Presumably you've never used solar panels?, a 1KW one would be seriously large, and would only produce 1KW for probably a few minutes a day, if it ever actually managed it?. This assumes it's on the equator in full sunlight, the specs are the absolute maximum possible - not what you actually get from them.

As panels age their output also falls, not to mention they would need regular cleaning and maintenance.

Thunderchild · 24th March 2007, 12:23 PM

hm yes but I still say that to state that it take more energy to make them than they produce is absured, ok so cut the figure in 4 generous eh ? will it cost 10 MW of power to make a panel ?

yea they need cleaning there are lots of people in africa that need work they don't want a terrificaly high salary either.

if an automatic tracking system is used they can also alter their slant to the sun throughout the day, it is a case of what the tracking system will use versus how much more power is produced.

Hero999 · 24th March 2007, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thunderchild

hm yes but I still say that to state that it take more energy to make them than they produce is absured, ok so cut the figure in 4 generous eh ? will it cost 10 MW of power to make a panel ?

I personally can't vouch for that, it's just something I've heard.

Having said that, think about how much energy is required to mine, transport and make the raw materials e.g. metal, semiconductors and plastic etc. from their mineral ores, for example electrolysis of aluminium takes huge amounts of electricity. Then there's transporting the solar panels to the whorehouses, then the shops and eventually to your house in your car or a delivery lorry.

**3v0** · 24th March 2007, 01:56 PM

In the US there are wind farms under construction in many areas because they are profitable. One near here had 150 1.5 Megawatt generators 6 months ago. They may be over 200 units by now. The noise and birds are not a big issue for them. There is maybe 1 occupied structure in 5-10 square miles. If the birds were a real problem the tree huggers would have stopped construction.

From what I know about solar cells I would have to say that they are not ready for prime time. (need more development).

In regards to the production of hydrogen from electricity. That too is an area where additional research may result in a more efficient process.

There are many things we take for granted today that were impossible only a few years ago.

HarveyH42 · 24th March 2007, 02:08 PM

How much hydrogen does the Ford Fuel cell car consume per mile? How long will a fuel cell last? What kind of maintence is required, and how often? Some how I don't think it's just a matter of feeding it hydrogen.

**3v0** · 24th March 2007, 02:40 PM

From http://media.ford.com/newsroom/relea...?release=25286

Quote:

The plug-in hybrid is powered by a 336-volt lithium-ion battery pack at all times. The vehicle drives the first 25 miles each day on stored electricity alone, after which the fuel cell begins operating to keep the battery pack charged. This provides another 200 miles of range for a total of 225 miles with zero emissions. Individual experiences will vary widely and can stretch out the time between fill-ups to more than 400 miles: drivers with modest daily needs would need to refuel only rarely, drivers who travel less than 50 miles each day will see fuel economy well over 80 mpg, while those with long daily commutes will see somewhat lower numbers as the fuel cell must run a larger fraction of the time.

and

Quote:

Certainly, many significant technical hurdles need to be overcome before a vehicle such as the Edge with HySeries Drive can become a reality. Fuel cell vehicles remain expensive, costing millions of dollars each. And the single biggest hurdle to plug-ins remains the cost of lithium-ion batteries. Much work also needs to be done to make fuel cells more durable and to create a hydrogen infrastructure.

Sceadwian · 24th March 2007, 05:46 PM

When saying zero emissions they always forget that it takes a polluting energy source to generate the energy in the first place, unless the entire setup is run from green generated hydrogen and electrical energy. Such a private setup for a home owner would be more costly to purchase and maintain than is practical. Not to mention the chemical and energy pollution required to simply create the devices and materials in the first place. They still have to work economic sanity and real value and practicality into a true green based econonmy. Oddly enough nowdays the Industries that do the polluting are finding it's actually cheaper to use more environmentally friendly energy sources, if for no other reason the recover what would otherwise be waste as usable energy in their own processes reducing their bottom line because of energy costs.

24th March 2007, 02:34 AM	(permalink)
Sceadwian Experienced Member Blog Entries: 1	Considering the cost of repairs to such a car, it's take more than a lifetime. __________________ Curiosity killed the cat; That's why they have nine lives.

24th March 2007, 08:31 AM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	well why don't you guys go and ask Mr Ford, Ford ALREADY MAKE SUCH CARS as I said before but we seem to be a lot of old fashioned deaf and blind people here. Solar panels are not efficient eh ? so bludy what ? they perhaps only produce pollution in their making once made they will provide power for decades without ANY POLLUTION. theres no point in say oooh its costs more than the way we already do it, thanks thats why we are still doing it the old way and pollution because humanity is a bunch of self destructive idiots that care more for money than their own future well being. like the chap at work that looks at me like I'm nuts when I insisted that THIS bag is for our platic bottles and not anything else so that they can be put out on wednesdays when the rubbish people collect the paper and plastic, needless to say he still continued to put metal ink tub lids into it. PLEASE HUMANITY GROW UP __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

24th March 2007, 12:23 PM	(permalink)
Thunderchild Experienced Member	hm yes but I still say that to state that it take more energy to make them than they produce is absured, ok so cut the figure in 4 generous eh ? will it cost 10 MW of power to make a panel ? yea they need cleaning there are lots of people in africa that need work they don't want a terrificaly high salary either. if an automatic tracking system is used they can also alter their slant to the sun throughout the day, it is a case of what the tracking system will use versus how much more power is produced. __________________ I AM the exeption that disproves the rule in many ways but the rules still apply (unfortunately) my site:www.simons-photography.com http://rushdenrotaract.org.uk see also http://www.bigstockphoto.com/account...fid=m2URATYch5 http://www.redbubble.com/people/simonsphotography

24th March 2007, 05:46 PM	(permalink)
Sceadwian Experienced Member Blog Entries: 1	When saying zero emissions they always forget that it takes a polluting energy source to generate the energy in the first place, unless the entire setup is run from green generated hydrogen and electrical energy. Such a private setup for a home owner would be more costly to purchase and maintain than is practical. Not to mention the chemical and energy pollution required to simply create the devices and materials in the first place. They still have to work economic sanity and real value and practicality into a true green based econonmy. Oddly enough nowdays the Industries that do the polluting are finding it's actually cheaper to use more environmentally friendly energy sources, if for no other reason the recover what would otherwise be waste as usable energy in their own processes reducing their bottom line because of energy costs. __________________ Curiosity killed the cat; That's why they have nine lives. Last edited by Sceadwian; 24th March 2007 at 05:52 PM.

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23rd March 2007, 11:45 PM	(permalink)
HarveyH42 Experienced Member	How much hydrogen does a fuel cell use in a day for a car? I remember a thread about producing hydrogen, think there were equations for calculating the volume produced and rate, according to the power applied. Might go back and see if there is a way to determine the size of a solar panel need to supply enough hydrogen to drive the car for a day. Even if the fuel is free, it would take a lifetime for the car and panels to pay for themselves in savings. Definately rich-boy toys...

24th March 2007, 01:56 PM	(permalink)
3v0 Moderator Blog Entries: 3	In the US there are wind farms under construction in many areas because they are profitable. One near here had 150 1.5 Megawatt generators 6 months ago. They may be over 200 units by now. The noise and birds are not a big issue for them. There is maybe 1 occupied structure in 5-10 square miles. If the birds were a real problem the tree huggers would have stopped construction. From what I know about solar cells I would have to say that they are not ready for prime time. (need more development). In regards to the production of hydrogen from electricity. That too is an area where additional research may result in a more efficient process. There are many things we take for granted today that were impossible only a few years ago.

24th March 2007, 02:08 PM	(permalink)
HarveyH42 Experienced Member	How much hydrogen does the Ford Fuel cell car consume per mile? How long will a fuel cell last? What kind of maintence is required, and how often? Some how I don't think it's just a matter of feeding it hydrogen.

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